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  #81  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:38 AM
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Default I consider it something more akin to Rhuidean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedust View Post
We all know Shai'tan is destroying the Pattern. I agree with what you're saying. I was just trying to point out that "Odd" points in certain areas of the Pattern don't show up "right there". It's definitely a hard thing to discuss and understand since we really have no clue.

But since you can't enter a Stedding, Finnland OR the Blight in TAR it shows a certain order to the Pattern.
...that Aelfland's Permanent Reflection exists in T'A'R, but that it cannot be entered. While with the Blight, I'm not sure there is a Permanent Reflection of the Blight. I know this is a small distinction.
  #82  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
Jordan said Aelfland
So, maybe Ghenji opens up into Eelfland?
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  #83  
Old 10-11-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I think I have Asperger's. Downs is a totally different thing, and Felix doesn't really fit the bill. He seems more like a paranoid schizophrenic to me. Bipolar maybe? We should ask Ivhon to diagnose him.
I found myself going back through some of Felix' posts the other day. I'm relatively new here (lurking for a long time, but not participating really until now), so I was curious if he's always been that way. I just found myself shaking my head the entire time. I'm honestly starting to feel that he is a prankster - I can't believe anyone could actually think what he thinks. Or, someone on this site once joked that "he's actually a computer program that was created to find every example of specific words and text in the series and link them together," or something along those lines. That's how I feel when I read his theories. The whole thing in another thread about "Nyneave being linked to Hightower 19 times," or whatever, just seems like pure lunacy to me.

But, the cool thing about a forum is, everyone can say whatever they want, and no one has to actually know that real person. Felix could be, for all we know, multiple individuals who get high together and post bizarre theories just to see what kinds of reactions they get. Seems just as likely to me...
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  #84  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TankSpill View Post
I found myself going back through some of Felix' posts the other day. I'm relatively new here (lurking for a long time, but not participating really until now), so I was curious if he's always been that way.
Yes. He does it (or did it) on Dragonmount too. I don't want to say this because there are lots of posters who have English as a second language and they make posts that are a million times better than mine, but I think English is his 2nd language. That doesn't account for much of the problem though. I think 90% is he's crazy and 10% is he's bad with English.
  #85  
Old 10-12-2010, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
As I don't know if it was paraphrased - if it was, it is suspect. Obviously, the ones that were taped, along with the online chats and weekly answers Jordan gave, are worthy of our trust.

Jordan said Aelfland - As for the Tower of Ghenjei, we don't know where it takes the person that enters, so such an entrance is not precluded, even if we took the answer as 100% correct.
I'll cede the fact that Finnland and the ToG may indeed be two different places. But that is semantics. Jordan was talking about the laws inside Finnland to respond to the question in all the prior responses, so it follows that he was still talking about it when talking about Traveling to TAR as well.

The way I would read it was that you couldn't Travel to TAR while inside Finnland because the laws of nature don't work the same way.

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Last edited by Sodas; 10-12-2010 at 03:28 AM.
  #86  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:52 AM
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Default While I agree that he was probably talking about all of finnland

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Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
I'll cede the fact that Finnland and the ToG may indeed be two different places. But that is semantics. Jordan was talking about the laws inside Finnland to respond to the question in all the prior responses, so it follows that he was still talking about it when talking about Traveling to TAR as well.

The way I would read it was that you couldn't Travel to TAR while inside Finnland because the laws of nature don't work the same way.

Posted from my Epic 4g
He didn't say Eelfland and we don't know that the ToG goes directly to Aelfland, so we can preclude it from being possible, simply because we interpret Jordan to have meant more than he said.
  #87  
Old 10-12-2010, 11:28 PM
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So you believe that they are two different worlds? Interesting. Why is that? I had always assumed that the game of snakes and foxes implies a singular world because it occurs in a single web.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-12-2010 at 11:32 PM.
  #88  
Old 10-12-2010, 11:54 PM
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Default Less about "two worlds".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
So you believe that they are two different worlds? Interesting. Why is that? I had always assumed that the game of snakes and foxes implies a singular world because it occurs in a single web.
A stedding isn't a world, therefore I see no reason to believe Aelfland couldn't have a property about it and how it interacts with TAR different from how Eelfland interacts with TAR. They don't need to be two different worlds to have different TAR interactions.
  #89  
Old 10-13-2010, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
A stedding isn't a world, therefore I see no reason to believe Aelfland couldn't have a property about it and how it interacts with TAR different from how Eelfland interacts with TAR. They don't need to be two different worlds to have different TAR interactions.
Ok. But a property? I would say they are much more than that. Time and distance are two of the fundamental pillars of the physical universe. These things do not change in Randland, not even in the stedding.

A stedding merely denies the True Source, a metaphysical quantity that has no mass. An effect that is replicated by ter'angrael.

To compare a stedding to the difference in the very laws of nature inside Finnland doesn't make sense. The stedding proves that the true source can be repressed, but not that each worlds physics can be different.


To the original point, Finnland in general is unique in that it's nature is to fold time and space. This doesn't allow channeling to work right inside Finnland, not because there isn't the true source, but because the weaves don't form properly. So it shouldn't be possible to form a Gateway to TAR from inside Finnland knowing what we know about weaves. But let's even put that aside....

It should be a hint that what we have seen is that TAR is in sync timewise with Randland. It is basically a reflection of Randland. Events inside TAR are sequential with events outside TAR. A perfect example is Rand and Rahvin, who were in the flesh in TAR, being in sync with Nyneave and Moggy, who were dreaming, during their battle in Caemlyn. But Finnland doesn't abid by those rules. Time folds in Finnland, unlike Randland. So, logically, how could TAR be expected to fold too, to reflect Finnland? It shouldn't, particularly because it has hard enough of a time adjusting to balefire.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
  #90  
Old 10-13-2010, 10:45 AM
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Default You cannot enter a stedding in T'A'R

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Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
Ok. But a property? I would say they are much more than that. Time and distance are two of the fundamental pillars of the physical universe. These things do not change in Randland, not even in the stedding.

A stedding merely denies the True Source, a metaphysical quantity that has no mass. An effect that is replicated by ter'angrael.

To compare a stedding to the difference in the very laws of nature inside Finnland doesn't make sense. The stedding proves that the true source can be repressed, but not that each worlds physics can be different.


To the original point, Finnland in general is unique in that it's nature is to fold time and space. This doesn't allow channeling to work right inside Finnland, not because there isn't the true source, but because the weaves don't form properly. So it shouldn't be possible to form a Gateway to TAR from inside Finnland knowing what we know about weaves. But let's even put that aside....

It should be a hint that what we have seen is that TAR is in sync timewise with Randland. It is basically a reflection of Randland. Events inside TAR are sequential with events outside TAR. A perfect example is Rand and Rahvin, who were in the flesh in TAR, being in sync with Nyneave and Moggy, who were dreaming, during their battle in Caemlyn. But Finnland doesn't abid by those rules. Time folds in Finnland, unlike Randland. So, logically, how could TAR be expected to fold too, to reflect Finnland? It shouldn't, particularly because it has hard enough of a time adjusting to balefire.
First - time is not in sync with T'A'R and the real world.

Quote:
RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
We have seen no indication that time goes backwards in the land of the finns. The laws of nature work differently, but we've never seen someone go in and then come out before they entered. I find it very difficult to believe that this Constant across all worlds...is somehow incapable of dealing with Aelfland's particular differences in laws, as it itself appears to handle time variation quite well as indicated by Jordan.

Second - a Stedding cannot be entered in TAR. In bringing up a Stedding, I was pointing out the concept that in one world, different parts of that world can have different interactions with TAR.

Third - TAR is a Permanent Reflection of all worlds; it's a constant. We have every reason to believe that all Parallel Worlds have Permanent Reflections and that all Mirror Worlds do too. We should consider the exact words Jordan supposedly used, "You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod." He did not say Tel'aran'rhiod does not reflect Aelfland; instead he puts the restriction on traveling to Aelfland's Permanent Reflection. This sounds much like what we saw with Rhuidean and T'A'R.

Quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"There are some places one cannot enter in Tel'aran'rhiod," Seana said. "Rhuidean. Ogier stedding. A few others. What happens there is shielded from a dreamwalker's eyes."
"What happens there is shielded from a dreamwalker's eyes." In other words, it exists, but it is shielded. Rhiudean could not be entered in T'A'R for a time; obviously, such seemed to have been man-made since this restriction ends after Rand's battle with Asmodean which suggests to me that the shielding was discovered in the Age of Legends in research of other naturally shielded places in TAR. Here is another quote that demonstrates this concept:

Quote:
TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes
She would have expected Rhuidean, now that it was open, or somewhere else in the Aiel Waste, or simply wherever the Wise Ones happened to be. Every place except Ogier stedding had its reflection in the World of Dreams—even the stedding did, really; but they could not be entered, just as Rhuidean had once been closed.
So, back to our the original question. Jordan specified Aelfland. Now, I believe such a restriction likely covers Eelfland too, as far as access to its Permanent Reflection being prohibited, but it's important to note that Jordan did not include Eelfland as far as our conversations go in regards to which spaces are shielded as far as it goes to accessing T'A'R.
  #91  
Old 10-13-2010, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by greebo View Post
I don't know, but i just re-read "To the Tower of Genjei" in tSR. I think (with no real evidence other than a hope and a feeling) that Gaidal is in the Tower.
Birgette speaks of how hard it is to leave in the waking world, and nearly impossible in TAR and just after that comes Gaidal's shadow. Shortly after, he disappears from TAR. They're ALWAYS together- that's been made abundantly clear, and events seem to have made this impossible, so there's something more, is all I'm sayin.
Seana seems to suggest to the Egwene al'Vere that the four Wise Ones--Amys, Bair, Melaine, plus Seana--already know of the existence of the Tower of Ghenjei in the TSR book too.


Likewise the Wise Ones already knew of the importance of the Aan’allein. If the Aan'allein dies, so dies the Aiel as a People. Why? Because the Aan'allein is going to later help save Moiraine's life. And Moiraine's life is a key to her helping to save the Pattern and the Aiel as a People. Why again? Because Moiraine and yes, Lanfear are two keys to saving the Pattern via Rand al'Thor later actions when attempting to re-seal the Bore.

It's a big circle of interlaced future events, each effected another towards a greater outcome.


Yes, this deserves a more detail Theory explanation--which I am working on currently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
So, back to our the original question. Jordan specified Aelfland. Now, I believe such a restriction likely covers Eelfland too, as far as access to its Permanent Reflection being prohibited, but it's important to note that Jordan did not include Eelfland as far as our conversations go in regards to which spaces are shielded as far as it goes to accessing T'A'R.
Birgitte's words to Perrin during a Wolf Dream, suggest Tamyrlin is partially incorrect.

Quote:
“No, archer.” She laughed. “I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a Bannerman’s courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 28 ‘To the Tower of Ghenjei’ – Perrin point of view
Not completely impossible, just all but impossible. Meaning Birgitte knows its possible to for a few individuals to escape in one piece and alive, the Tower of Ghenjei's realms of the Eelfinn & Aelfinn via a Dream.



Even Verin believes these that "all" these other Worlds are accessible to a True Dreamer:
Quote:
Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. “Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel’aran’rhiod, “the Unseen World.” Perhaps “the World of Dreams” is a better translation. Many people—ordinary folk who could not think of channeling—sometimes glimpse Tel’aran’rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child—a true Dreamer—can enter Tel’aran’rhiod.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 21 'A World of Dreams' - Egwene al'Vere point of view

Considering Verin Sedai has likely read all of Corianin Nedeal's writings, I tend to believe her point of view over Tamyrlin's judgment on this particular issue.


If you do not want to take Verin's word on it, then thinking about Rand al'Thor's thoughts about how to use a Portal Stone to move to another World and another location within that given World.

Quote:
His fingers stopped, returned to the bit he had just examined. It was weathered almost beyond making out, but he was sure it was the wavy lines. They represented a Portal Stone on Toman Head, not in the Waste, but they located what had been the base of the thing when it stood upright. Symbols at the top represented worlds; those at the bottom, Portal Stones. With a symbol from the top and one from the bottom, he could supposedly travel to a given Portal Stone in a given world. With just one from the bottom, he knew he could reach a Portal Stone in this world. The Portal Stone near Rhuidean, for instance. If he knew the symbol for it. Now was when he needed luck, needed that ta’veren tugging at chance to favor him.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 22 'Out of the Stone' - Rand al'Thor point of view

It is possible to travel to 'Other Worlds' via the Portal Stone. Just as it's possible to travel into the 'doorway' of the Tower of Ghenjei. A 'doorway' Birgitte suggested to Perrin does exist, to enter realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.
Quote:
The tower? It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 28 ‘To the Tower of Ghenjei’ – Perrin point of view
That doorway is a space between in essence.


Aviendha, for example knows of the two symbols on a Portal Stone near to Rhuidean. This information is valuable, assuming that the Glass Columns of Rhuidean are to be destroyed if she enters them wearing Elayne's Twisted Dream Ring--based how the similar Three Arches acted in Tar Valon during Egwene's Accepted Testing. If Aviendha can learn or guess the symbol for the physical world of the Aiel Three-Folds Land, she could find another way home on her own.


Aviendha knows it's possible to travel from one place to another, by Portal Stone. And she should know that Rand, Mat and Verin Sedai did this previously to Toman Head.


So, yes, I think it's possible that Aviendha will travel from a foreign world of the Aiel's Past and return to the physical world using a Portal Stone.



Regarding Tamyrlin's claims of:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Second - a Stedding cannot be entered in TAR. In bringing up a Stedding, I was pointing out the concept that in one world, different parts of that world can have different interactions with TAR.
I suspect its true if one is Dreaming, however it's likely incorrect if one is in Flesh and Dreaming. The key difference is where one's physical body is located.

If one is only Dreaming, then one's body remains tied to a World, and to a Dream within that World.

If one is in the Flesh, then one body's is in the Dream, where one can traveling or move to foreign worlds--Mirror or Parallel World.

The reason I suspect why the four Wise Ones Dreamwalkers could not enter the Steddings, Rhuidean, et la via a Dream is because they have the custom of specifically not Dreaming in the Flesh.

When Rand, Hurin, Loial traveled to a Mirror World, they all were moved both in the mind of the Dream and in the Body to this new Mirror World (See 'The Great Hunt' book). How can readers know this? Because Egwene tried and tried to find Rand in her Dreams, but could not while Rand was in the Flesh in this Mirror World.


It's a kin the situation where the Aiel Dreamwalkers are now, with Moiraine being held in the Eelfinn's Realm. It's a foreign world, a foreign Dream world too. To see Moiraine there in a Dream, would mean to Dream in the Flesh of that place: Eelfinn Realm, whether in a Dream or to walk out of that Dream into the literally spot next to Moiraine in the Eelfinn's realm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jana
Yes. He does it (or did it) on Dragonmount too. I don't want to say this because there are lots of posters who have English as a second language and they make posts that are a million times better than mine, but I think English is his 2nd language. That doesn't account for much of the problem though. I think 90% is he's crazy and 10% is he's bad with English.
I will not write anything at Dragonmount, because Luckers repeatedly erases my Posts. He repeatedly specifically personally attacked myself in writing in a public forum, and then erases every response I wrote in my defense. I cannot trust Lucker word, nor his sense of honor, as it stands. It essences, Luckers as a Moderator at Dragonmount is a BULLY. A bully with the power of ink and deletion at Dragonmount.


One cannot have a fair discussion at Dragonmount, so it's dead as far as I care. Dragonmount is an Academic Waste Land. Why? No freedom of thought nor speech.


Unfortunately, Dragonmount is not run by individuals with Verin's creed toward the pursue and preservation of knowledge:

Quote:
Once again she considered burning the manuscript, just as she had considered giving it to Egwene. But destroying knowledge, any knowledge, was anathema to her.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 21 'A World of Dream' - Verin Sedai point of view
I guess this puts Dragonmount Forum's Moderators, on the side of the Dark One.



If Jana really cares to know, I tend to get impatient and hit the Submit Reply button before re-reading what I type--too many times. Sigh. Thinking out something in one's mind, while at the same time typing it up, is not the best environment for producing the top quality essays in terms of grammar or spelling.

No, English is not my second language... chuckles. When I'm patient and re-read my essays, I catch the errors. Time's a premium, through.


As for the FelixPax is "crazy" argument, nope. I'm sane with no medical difficulties, whether mental or physical. Even scored above-average on a full IQ test in High School, curiously the same score as my class' valedictorian scored. (Look up Stanford Binet IQ test) Laugh, I even graduated a top university a few years back. Although by writing all these results, I'm violating the customs of the majority of high achievers I've known... never mention one's scores unless absolutely necessary. Why is that a common custom? Because many others love to see the so-called high fall into the dirt with leave with mud on their faces. Little good can speaking of scores in public. It's a kin to Mat's feelings about Nobles at times in WoT universe. One good exception perhaps, is when looking for a job?

The lack of "Time, Patience, and Reviewing" one's work account for most of the errors in question.


Just curious how those with ideological axes to bear, seem to typically ask if I'm crazy, rather than ask questions about a given person's observations of the texts.



I guess it's hard to review one's own assumptions anew again, and challenge them a fresh? Does the idea of factions and belonging to a faction inhibit, the revaluation of knowledge and facts? Yes, yes I believe it does.


Remember I had to challenge my own assumptions about Mat Cauthon and Valan Luca's role in the story, after 'The Gathering Storm' before I finally acknowledged I missed the "Bigger Picture".

Unfortunately, it seems few have grasped at how Robert Jordan has interwoven Valan Luca presents throughout the series. It's a kin to the structure one of the first known epics ever created: The Odyssey. Plus literary influences from Mark Twain's King Arthur book, Slavic Tales, Ganesha, Valentine et al.


Valan Luca has the true heart of the Jenn Aiel. Only Valan Luca has fought to live, and sought to follow the true meaning of what Solinda Sedai originally desired:

Quote:
Her hand tightened painfully in his hair. “The citizens have already fled Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da’shain yet have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 'The Dedicated' - Jonai point of view, and Rand's point of view too
'The Way of the Leaf' as understood originally by Jonai, missed the original mark of who and what Solinda Sedai meant: 'To Save You'.


Yes, even the 'The Way of the Leaf' needs to change and adopt before the next Age comes fully.


What does this mean?

Even some of the Tinkers will fight, to survive.
Who might this include?
  • Raen, Ila
  • Rendra, Liandrin (Tinker "Lost")
  • Valan Luca, Clarine Anhill, Petra Anhill (Tinker Outcasts)

When and Where will some of these Tinker individuals fight?

In Towers of Midnight, in Caemlyn.
Why?
To save Elayne.

Valan Luca and his People, I predict will aid Mat Cauthon and Renaile din Calon Blue Star in springing Elayne to safety.

Jarid's army and others, I predict will enter Caemlyn by Traveling Gateway. That's one threat to Elayne's safety along many others.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 10-13-2010 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Fixed a typo & added a Birgitte quotation I missed the 1st time around
  #92  
Old 10-13-2010, 02:43 PM
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Wow Felix...you're in rare form today. The scroll wheel on my mouse is groaning.
  #93  
Old 10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
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Default Felix - Please don't presume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
[INDENT] [INDENT] Birgitte's words to Perrin during a Wolf Dream, suggest Tamyrlin is partially incorrect.

Considering Verin Sedai has likely read all of Corianin Nedeal's writings, I tend to believe her point of view over Tamyrlin's judgment on this particular issue.
I have never claimed that T'A'R does not exist in All Worlds. It does. If you so desire, please go back and read my posts. We are talking about access, not existence. Verin makes no claims about the ability to access every place that TAR touches - and such a claim, if it existed, would be ridiculous, because Verin would had to have attempted to visit them all. She's speaking in theoretical terminology or in the limited terminology of her personal experience and any experience gathered in-world sources, which are likely to be fallible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Regarding Tamyrlin's claims of:
I suspect its true if one is Dreaming, however it's likely incorrect if one is in Flesh and Dreaming. The key difference is where one's physical body is located.

If one is only Dreaming, then one's body remains tied to a World, and to a Dream within that World.

If one is in the Flesh, then one body's is in the Dream, where one can traveling or move to foreign worlds--Mirror or Parallel World.

The reason I suspect why the four Wise Ones Dreamwalkers could not enter the Steddings, Rhuidean, et la via a Dream is because they have the custom of specifically not Dreaming in the Flesh.

When Rand, Hurin, Loial traveled to a Mirror World, they all were moved both in the mind of the Dream and in the Body to this new Mirror World (See 'The Great Hunt' book). How can readers know this? Because Egwene tried and tried to find Rand in her Dreams, but could not while Rand was in the Flesh in this Mirror World.

It's a kin the situation where the Aiel Dreamwalkers are now, with Moiraine being held in the Eelfinn's Realm. It's a foreign world, a foreign Dream world too. To see Moiraine there in a Dream, would mean to Dream in the Flesh of that place: Eelfinn Realm, whether in a Dream or to walk out of that Dream into the literally spot next to Moiraine in the Eelfinn's realm.
Yes, it is possible being in T'A'R in the flesh would help someone bypass these traveling restrictions. However, Jordan did not specify that difference. And we watched Asmodean play on the edges of Rhuidean. If he could have entered TAR in the flesh and bypassed the restricted access wall into Rhuidean, he would have (and please don't waste my time asserting that he didn't know how to enter TAR in the flesh or didn't attempt to do so.) So, while you are right, we do not know it to be factual, it is likely that access restricted zones in TAR apply to both Dreaming and In Flesh TAR travel as a general rule. It is still unknown if Slayer entered the ToG through T'A'R. It's possible he did. Of course, we don't understand Slayer and how he has the powers he has, so as with every rule, he may be an exception or know how to exploit said exceptions. Finally, Jordan didn't specify ToG, he said Aelfland was inaccessible, so it's not clear any contradiction even would exist if Slayer entered ToG through T'A'R.

However - such a clarification question would be worthwhile to Brandon/Maria. If it was possible to enter places in the flesh in TAR that are restricted to Dreamers, that would be a nice bit of world-building knowledge that would appreciate and it would expand our understanding of TAR. So, a question like: Robert Jordan was reported to have said said travel to Aelfland in T'A'R, like a stedding, was not possible. Does this restriction cover someone that entered TAR in the flesh? Second, have there ever been individuals that have been able to get around this restriction?

As to Moiraine, you are incorrect if you are suggesting that Egwene could not find Moiraine's dreams in the Gap of Infinity. All dreams of all worlds can be found there, as Egwene tells us many times. And no I don't feel the need to quote them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
That doorway is a space between in essence.

Aviendha, for example knows of the two symbols on a Portal Stone near to Rhuidean. This information is valuable, assuming that the Glass Columns of Rhuidean are to be destroyed if she enters them wearing Elayne's Twisted Dream Ring--based how the similar Three Arches acted in Tar Valon during Egwene's Accepted Testing. If Aviendha can learn or guess the symbol for the physical world of the Aiel Three-Folds Land, she could find another way home on her own.

Aviendha knows it's possible to travel from one place to another, by Portal Stone. And she should know that Rand, Mat and Verin Sedai did this previously to Toman Head.

So, yes, I think it's possible that Aviendha will travel from a foreign world of the Aiel's Past and return to the physical world using a Portal Stone.
Yes, if one knew the symbols to get back to the Real World, they could travel from any Mirror World back to the Real World using those symbols. This seems a bit basic.

Now, if we consider the other way around, getting to that Mirror World in the first case, when that Mirror World is not linked by symbol to the Portal Stone, if one understands the mechanics behind Portal Stones, I'd posit they could access other Mirror Worlds with the Portal Stones without having a physical symbol (but such people are dead and gone.) So, the other mechanism to find other Mirror Worlds would be to use TAR to travel to the TAR reflection of a Mirror World. A traveller would need a knowledge of gateways to enter TAR in the flesh in order to accomplish the type of travel you just noted, bypassing the need for the tool (Portal Stone).

A final note, in such a conversation, please use (Past, Present, Future) Mirror World, Parallel World and Real World (Randland - although it seems clear it qualifies as a Parallel World, so Real World helps to define more specifically) when discussing a world, as foreign world requires more context and slows down the understanding for some. Additionally, Gap of Infinity is a name we use to discuss the out of body dream space where Egwene can see all dreams of all people of all worlds.

Oh and one final final note - as far as Tel'aran'rhiod, Mirror Worlds, Parallel Worlds, Gap of Infinity, Skimming Space (Void), Ter'angreals for Testing Aes Sedai and Aiel, I would suggest trusting my opinion over Verin's, as far as I've had the luxury of asking the literal Omnipotent Creator and his Prophet and Assistants questions and received answers dealing with these issues along with many other such lucky individuals, information Verin would wish she had access to in regards to these concepts. I respect her theories on the subjects, but I certainly don't hold them as exclusive to other information. Although, nothing I've said has gone against any of Verin's claims.

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 10-13-2010 at 04:43 PM.
  #94  
Old 10-14-2010, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
First - time is not in sync with T'A'R and the real world.
The rate of time moving may be different, but the worlds run parallel to each other in time. That is why tar reflects randland. Most importantly, if one is dreaming themselves into tar, and one is there in the flesh, time runs the same speed. This is what I call syncronous, because those actually in tar move at the same rate as those dreaming themselves into tar.

Quote:
We have seen no indication that time goes backwards in the land of the finns.
No, but we have every reason to believe it folds. And that creates unusual situations, such as Rand, Moi and Mat all going throught the same doorway at relatively the same time and never passing each other in Finnland. Now, how are 3 people in the same spot supposed to be reflected by TAR? The laws of physics doesn't allow 3 objects to maintain the same space at the same time. Therefore, there isn't logically a reason to believe finnland can be reflected.

Quote:
The laws of nature work differently, but we've never seen someone go in and then come out before they entered. I find it very difficult to believe that this Constant across all worlds...is somehow incapable of dealing with Aelfland's particular differences in laws, as it itself appears to handle time variation quite well as indicated by Jordan.
Thats a horrible logical conclussion. Tar isnt handling anything. It is just a reflection where time runs faster.
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  #95  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:09 PM
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You're thinking that time must fold in Aelfland but in reality all the evidence points to space being what folds in Aelfland. Hence you walk along a corridor that turns all different directions and yet when you look out the window you see the same exact view you did before, even though you know that should be impossible.

Did time just fold when that happened? No, it was space.

That's why all three could go into the same doorway and not pass each other.
  #96  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
The rate of time moving may be different, but the worlds run parallel to each other in time. That is why tar reflects randland. Most importantly, if one is dreaming themselves into tar, and one is there in the flesh, time runs the same speed. This is what I call syncronous, because those actually in tar move at the same rate as those dreaming themselves into tar.
That is not why TAR reflects Randland. As Verin points out there are worlds that run perpendicular, and in all TAR exists. It's a constant among all worlds and all variations of worlds. TAR surrounds and exists between all worlds.

Quote:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant.

[...]

Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. "Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation. Many people - ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel'aran'rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel'aran'rhiod."
Nothing in the books refutes these claims, nor does anything in the Interviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
No, but we have every reason to believe it folds. And that creates unusual situations, such as Rand, Moi and Mat all going throught the same doorway at relatively the same time and never passing each other in Finnland. Now, how are 3 people in the same spot supposed to be reflected by TAR? The laws of physics doesn't allow 3 objects to maintain the same space at the same time. Therefore, there isn't logically a reason to believe finnland can be reflected.
I disagree. There is no reason to believe that TAR could not reflect the Physics of any given world. You have no proof and no way to refute Verin's statements that T'A'R exists in all worlds, including Perpendicular worlds. In fact, the Gap of Infinity clearly shows that TAR exists in all worlds. All of the Dreams of all worlds, even worlds that Egwene describes make her sick to just peek into, have dreams that are accessible in the GOI. All dreams have the capability of touching TAR. Another set of facts you will have a hard time refuting in any meaningful way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas View Post
Thats a horrible logical conclussion. Tar isnt handling anything. It is just a reflection where time runs faster.
Discussing how different physics might affect a Permanent Reflection is an interesting topic, but you are intent on denying even the likelihood of the existence of a Finnland TAR in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Jordan described Aelfland's relationship to TAR as to that of a Stedding. From the books it's clear that TAR does reflect a Stedding, but it cannot be entered. So, the only "horrible logical conclusion" is the one you have come to regarding Aelfland and TAR.

And TAR is anything but a simple reflection. By the way, I'm loving a new TAR discussion. Few even enjoy this topic my friend.

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 10-14-2010 at 05:53 PM.
  #97  
Old 10-14-2010, 11:02 PM
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Tam why bother? It just derails the thread.
Here I'll contribute as much as Felix, courtesy of Timecube:

Americans are dumb, educated ONE

stupid and they worship ONEism Evil.

It is not immoral to kill believers,

for the stupid bastards EVOLVE from son


or daughter who precedes them. NOT one damn human


adult has ever been
created - for ONLY babies are CREATED


- and every adult has within them the LIFE given

by children who DIE to give-up their lives
to their parent

VALAN LUCA VALAN LUCA


------

He provides just as much content, ban him, or have some kind of personal talk with him, he derails with conversation too much.
  #98  
Old 10-14-2010, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
That is not why TAR reflects Randland. As Verin points out there are worlds that run perpendicular, and in all TAR exists. It's a constant among all worlds and all variations of worlds. TAR surrounds and exists between all worlds.



Nothing in the books refutes these claims, nor does anything in the Interviews.



I disagree. There is no reason to believe that TAR could not reflect the Physics of any given world. You have no proof and no way to refute Verin's statements that T'A'R exists in all worlds, including Perpendicular worlds. In fact, the Gap of Infinity clearly shows that TAR exists in all worlds. All of the Dreams of all worlds, even worlds that Egwene describes make her sick to just peek into, have dreams that are accessible in the GOI. All dreams have the capability of touching TAR. Another set of facts you will have a hard time refuting in any meaningful way.



Discussing how different physics might affect a Permanent Reflection is an interesting topic, but you are intent on denying even the likelihood of the existence of a Finnland TAR in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Jordan described Aelfland's relationship to TAR as to that of a Stedding. From the books it's clear that TAR does reflect a Stedding, but it cannot be entered. So, the only "horrible logical conclusion" is the one you have come to regarding Aelfland and TAR.

And TAR is anything but a simple reflection. By the way, I'm loving a new TAR discussion. Few even enjoy this topic my friend.
As an avid pot smoker, physicist and philosopher, we could talk about TAR day and night. Don't even get me started on the other dimensions.
  #99  
Old 10-14-2010, 11:10 PM
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He provides just as much content, ban him, or have some kind of personal talk with him, he derails with conversation too much.
He won't derail anything if you put him on ignore. This isn't Dragonmount; they ran him off by deleting his off-topic posts. So you should go join there; I'm sure you'll find the conversation level more to your liking.
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  #100  
Old 10-14-2010, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
He won't derail anything if you put him on ignore. This isn't Dragonmount; they ran him off by deleting his off-topic posts. So you should go join there; I'm sure you'll find the conversation level more to your liking.
I'm on Dragonmount, I had him ignored, but then in posts I saw weird responses to stuff that made no sense so I figured I'd put up with it. But like I said before he's showing his hand way too freely lately with the Nynaeve and Lan going into the tower and yet he's still freely trolling.
 


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