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  #1  
Old 11-23-2010, 07:29 AM
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Default Demandred is NOT in Murandy! Surprise!

There are as many threads out there right now on why Demandred MUST be ruling Murandy as there are users on this forum. I decided to take a different approach and thus, this will be a discussion of the reasons Demandred IS NOT the king of Murandy, or any power behind the throne shenanigans like Rahvin.

1.) Demandred is a well known General. As such, there would be little reason for him to conscript the Band of the Red Hand to help his armies defeat the solitary nobles of his land and bind the land to him.
2.) He is a fricken FORSAKEN. Why, oh why, oh why!? Would one of the Forsaken not only ask for the help of outside forces to secure his rule, but then actually pay them for their services instead of destroying them? BOTRH’s coffers are full up because the services provided to the King of Murandy. Demandred would have no reason to pay people he could manipulate, destroy, or at the very least intimidate into not asking for payment. (not to mention Compulsion etc…)
3.) It doesn’t fit the rest of the Forsaken. Once again, the outside help thing is SO anti-Forsaken, it strikes me as impossible. No other of the Forsaken required assistance in capturing their lands, and none of them took this long to consolidate their lands.
4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.


In conclusion, I just want to say…heh I did it
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2010, 07:43 AM
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Of course he's the King of Murandy. He's Perrin's Beard. In all seriousness though, you make a good point with number 4. RJ said we haven't seen his alter ego as of CoT. But I don't know if that means we haven't seen him on screen or just haven't seen him referenced. I think it just boils down to, who would want Murandy? It's worse than Altara for being totally useless. I doubt they could fight their way out of paper sack.

Andorman Revere: Arise! Arise! The Murandians are coming! The Murandians are coming! (o noes)
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2010, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.
No, he wasn't. Talmanes was there, talking about Roedran.
  #4  
Old 11-23-2010, 08:15 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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I don't really believe in Roedrandred, but I will play devil's advocate here:

1) Even the best general can't do much without sufficient army. The Murandian King doesn't have an own army anywhere near big enough to overpower the other local nobles, so hiring mercenaries makes sense.

2) and 3) The reason could be simply to keep his cover. If out of the blue all Murandian nobles just submit to him because of Compulsion, this would probably make Rand very suspicious after what happened in Andor, Illian and Tear with the other Forsaken.

4) is wrong, as Jana already wrote.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:38 AM
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One thing that I thought pointed towards Demandred as Roedran was the conspicuous absence of Murandy at the Field of Merrilor. I don't remember exactly why Roedran didn't come - he didn't respond to Egwene's attempts at communication, right? Sorry, I don't have the book with me right now. Anyway it seemed like another piece of evidence pointing towards Murandy just because it's the only kingdom whose ruler we still don't really know much about...

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  #6  
Old 11-23-2010, 09:58 AM
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Default Demandred

Don't know if it helps...

But BS stated his alter ego hasn't been on screen as of KoD.
Refused to answer whether he was seen in TGS for fear of narrowing it down
Then said he wasn't seen in ToM.

Did we meet anyone we hadn't seen before in TGS?
  #7  
Old 11-23-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.


In conclusion, I just want to say…heh I did it
No, you didn't.
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Elwynn View Post
Don't know if it helps...

But BS stated his alter ego hasn't been on screen as of KoD.
Refused to answer whether he was seen in TGS for fear of narrowing it down
Then said he wasn't seen in ToM.

Did we meet anyone we hadn't seen before in TGS?
If that is exactly what BS stated about Demandred with regards to TGS then any character that showed up only in TGS and nowhere else has only a 50/50 of being a Demandred candidate. Not much to go on.
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:46 AM
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If that is exactly what BS stated about Demandred with regards to TGS then any character that showed up only in TGS and nowhere else has only a 50/50 of being a Demandred candidate. Not much to go on.
If there's six of them, would that mean that we end up with three Demandred's?
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:49 PM
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If there's six of them, would that mean that we end up with three Demandred's?
So that's his master plan.

No, I'm saying even if there were characters unique to TGS that never show up prior, or in ToM, then at best they're only 50/50 for even being a candidate, because it's still possible Demandred never showed up in an alter ego in TGS either.
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:42 PM
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[QUOTE=SixPips;130973]There are as many threads out there right now on why Demandred MUST be ruling Murandy as there are users on this forum. I decided to take a different approach and thus, this will be a discussion of the reasons Demandred IS NOT the king of Murandy, or any power behind the throne shenanigans like Rahvin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
1.) Demandred is a well known General. As such, there would be little reason for him to conscript the Band of the Red Hand to help his armies defeat the solitary nobles of his land and bind the land to him.
He didn't hire them as an actual army. He hired them as a tactical move to get the other Nobles to follow him. That sounds like the thinking of a General to me.

Also, most Generals prefer the easy way to the hard way.

Easy way: Make the Nobles come to you against a foreign invader.
Hard way: Find every noble in Murandy, Compulse them, then remember that people who are strong willed are hard to control with Compulsion, and that all of Murandy is made of contentious, strong willed people, so you can't even let the Nobles out of your sight. Don't give a reason why things are different. Just make sudden changes like happened in Tear, Andor, Arad Domon, etc... That worked out well before. So, find all of Rand's armies at your doorstep and fight them while watching all the Nobles, and... point made. :-P

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
2.) He is a fricken FORSAKEN. Why, oh why, oh why!? Would one of the Forsaken not only ask for the help of outside forces to secure his rule, but then actually pay them for their services instead of destroying them? BOTRH’s coffers are full up because the services provided to the King of Murandy. Demandred would have no reason to pay people he could manipulate, destroy, or at the very least intimidate into not asking for payment. (not to mention Compulsion etc…)
Maybe it would seem suspicious if an army with a reputation of never losing a battle, led by one of the Dragon's best friends and another Ta'varen disappeared for no reason.

Also, they were intimidated. They made it clear that they left because Demandred.... I mean Roedran was getting his army together and they thought he was going to attack (see: your point).

Also, where did a not very powerful King get that kind of money. We've seen from Elayne what a Queen
from a wealthy Nation, with lots of resources can afford. She was running out of money after a few months of an army MUCH smaller than the Band. How could Roedran afford to pay them enough to cover a couple years?

Quote:
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3.) It doesn’t fit the rest of the Forsaken. Once again, the outside help thing is SO anti-Forsaken, it strikes me as impossible. No other of the Forsaken required assistance in capturing their lands, and none of them took this long to consolidate their lands.
Like how Graendal never dealt with Nobles? Or how since the others did it like that, it still attracted WAAAAY too much attention to themselves, and brought Rand down on them?

He didn't REQUIRE the Band of the Red Hand to take the lands. He REQUIRED them to keep the lands and armies from Rand (something Demandred was supposedly quite good at in the Age of Legends).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.
Yeah. I think it's been said, but that didn't happen. It's actually the exact opposite. Roedran has never been seen on screen, but only referenced, and Sanderson said that we should be able to figure it out.

I have a fairly thorough discussion of why it has to be Roedran under "Demandred's rule is secure".
  #12  
Old 11-23-2010, 07:38 PM
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He's Perrin's Beard.
FWIW, I'm convinced at this point that Faile and Perrin's relationship is sincere and not a cover, and that Faile is not Demandred. Though it would explain why Perrin is so heartbroken about that pretty boy Aram...
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:13 PM
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Murandy's kinda pointless. I could see Roderan being under Demerdred's control... but not who he actually is. I'd guess he's up to something in the Isle of Madmen or Sahra even though both haven't been mentioned much in the books... it makes a lot of sense that someone from the Shadow would do something over there... they're both very good opporunities... After all, an Island full of crazy people would be fairly easy to convert to the shadow, and gives him access to more channelers than anyone but maybe Moridin
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:16 PM
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Murandy's kinda pointless.
That's precisely why it's a good choice. Everyone thinks it's insignificant.

Look at all of these places as exactly that. Places. Land masses. Murandy is just a good a place as any to set up whatever he wants to set up. Actually it's better than most places, because nobody cares what happens there.
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:52 AM
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But what happens in Murandy stays in Murandy. Which makes conquering the world from there a bit tricky.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:34 AM
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It occurred to me today that everyone (myself included) is thinking of Murandy as a tiny insignificant nation in the middle of nowhere. Which, to be sure, it is. And I am sure that is how everyone in Randland currently sees it, too.

But thankfully I couldn't wait for ToM, and got it in hardback, which means I had the opportunity to see the full-colour map for the first time in years. I was amazed at the sense of wonder the thing can instill in me after all this time.

Anyway. Murandy is right below Andor (== Elayne). It is right above Illian (== Rand). It is right next to Altara (== Seanchan). Presumably, everyone is assuming that the Shadowspawn will come pouring out of the Blight. Everyone is looking north. Who would suspect a sneak-attack from behind their lines? And if there is a Waygate in Murandy (they're everywhere, why not there too?) then Aaaarrgh!

Of course with Caemlyn already in flames, the Seanchan not seeming particularly weakened, and only one book to go, it could be debated how much even a sneak attack could do. But anyway, thought I would just throw it out there. Murandy: not so tactically stupid.

On the other hand: what better way to align Rand, Elayne and the Seanchan than provide a common threat right in the middle of them. But maybe Demandred is just that ballsy
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:40 AM
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Yes, rather than being in the middle of nowhere, Murandy is in the middle of everywhere. That's sort of the whole* point the "that's where Demandred is" faction is trying to hammer home.

However, I still prefer the "Demandred is an Aiel clan chief" theory I've been nurturing for lots of books now. I've not researched this theory too closely, yet. Purely out of lazyness, of course. Nothing to do with a suspicion that it might fall apart if looked at with too heavy a gaze.

* Well, one of the whole points. They do have a couple more, I admit.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:58 AM
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I don't even care about central location. I just figure that Demandred needs a staging area. He can transport his minions wherever he wants. Any land will do. As long as it's land that nobody will come snooping around.

The bonus of Murandy is that there's civilization. He doesn't have to live in the middle of nowhere. He can still receive news. Lugard is a big trade city. Feeding his minions from there would be easy.

We don't know a whole lot about him. Maybe he likes living near people and having a somewhat "normal" life (as far as commanders/kings go) other than the fact he's allied with the Dark One.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:54 AM
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Great replies all, After I wrote this post I got the big white book of everything in the mail and read most of it. The part of the book that interested me most was Demandred's profile. It was iterated and reiterated that "Almost was the story of Demandred's life. He was almost as good of a general as Lews Therin, Almost as acclaimed, wrote almost as acclaimed of books...etc" and one part of the book refers to his anger over LTT being chosen to lead the war effort over him against the shadow as being the reason he moved to the shadow. That being said, I want to submit another idea:

So many people went through the Taimandred theory I got tired of seeing it before RJ even said he wasn't Taim. BUT, RJ didn't say he had no affiliations with the Black Tower.

I think that the dreamspike we see at the Black Tower was given to Damondred by Moridin, just as the Spike he gave Graendal was used by her. I think Demandred is running things at the BT, guiding the M'Hael Taim and Taim is serving him quite faithfully due to the knowledge shared with him by Demandred.

My biggest reason for believing this is that I think nothing would please him more than taking something LTT created and using it against him. I think Demandred wanted the BT not only because the sheer power of ruling it, but because the sheer "What now b@*#$ I got yo men, and they work better for me than they ever did you!" appeal of it.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:58 AM
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I can't help but agree. I was thinking about this myself. Demandred mentions in ToM that his rule is secure and I think I remember him mentioning in one of the other recent books that he has an army at his disposal. It does seem that the idea to for turning Asha"man and Aes Sedai to the Shadow using 13&13 and the dreamspike would come from one of the Forsaken.

We know that Taim has been in contact with Demandred. On the other hand, we know that Taim has been in direct contact with Moridin also(see WH). So it is possible that Moridin planned the BT mess with Taim.
 

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