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  #1  
Old 11-07-2010, 04:22 PM
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Default The Oaths (again)

So, the Seanchan are about to attack again. But now Egwene has sworn the Oaths, and she won't be able to use the Power in the same way that she did in the previous attack. I don't know how many of those novices she has managed to raise to the shawl - if she was planning to have Nicola ready by the Last Battle, then it stands to reason that there are many others. She noted Nicola's strength as a reason for wanting to promote her. Wouldn't it be ironic if she crippled all of her strongest channelers for the upcoming battle? How many other channelers will be there? Most of the Asha'man seem to be deployed elsewhere. Wise Ones? Kin? Windfinders?

Also...it would be really sweet if this didn't turn into an Egwene-hating thread. We can discuss this without getting overly negative about her as a character.
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:26 PM
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It won't happen, but the simple solution would be to change the oath to "life or well-being." Or "life or freedom."

I suppose they'd think that makes it too open to interpretation though.


I suppose the Aes Sedai could think of what the definition of "life" is though. If being damane doesn't fall into that category, they can fire away.
  #3  
Old 11-07-2010, 04:37 PM
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I think it depends on the exact timing of the Seanchan attack. The possibilities are many. Mat can somehow figure out how to defuse the situation before it happens; that's one possibility, although, an unlikely one. Rand might be able to take on a good portion of the Seanchan by himself, with the backing of all his armies. That's another possibility but I see Rand as having a different function; he has to deal with Lanfear and Lan. If it occurs later rather than sooner, it could be that the cleansed Black Tower saves the day, thereby insuring unity and alliance among the channelers.

The oaths are history though. They will not be there at the end of the story, as far as I'm concerned. I've touched on this topic before and the fact of the matter is, unless they get the Asha'man to swear the same oaths, the White Tower will be greatly outnumbered. And that's if the "Oath Rod" even works on men.
  #4  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
So, the Seanchan are about to attack again. But now Egwene has sworn the Oaths, and she won't be able to use the Power in the same way that she did in the previous attack. I don't know how many of those novices she has managed to raise to the shawl - if she was planning to have Nicola ready by the Last Battle, then it stands to reason that there are many others. She noted Nicola's strength as a reason for wanting to promote her. Wouldn't it be ironic if she crippled all of her strongest channelers for the upcoming battle? How many other channelers will be there? Most of the Asha'man seem to be deployed elsewhere. Wise Ones? Kin? Windfinders?

Also...it would be really sweet if this didn't turn into an Egwene-hating thread. We can discuss this without getting overly negative about her as a character.
It would be awesomely ironic if that were to happen. Ideally, they would still manage to fight off the attack but with a good amount of casualties...casualties that would wake up Egwene to the fact that the Oaths do more harm than good and she goes back to her original plan of doing away with the Oaths (The plan she had before Siuan and Arangar corrupted her).
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:37 PM
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I'm quite certain that, especially after the attack, all Aes Sedai feel in danger of their lives when Seanchan are around, and especially when they show up uninvited with a huge force in Tar Valon.
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:42 PM
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The Oaths don't say 'except when I feel like I'm in danger'. They say 'except in the last defense of my life, or that of my Warder or another sister'. Or something like that. Bit harder to get around.
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:45 PM
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The Oaths don't say 'except when I feel like I'm in danger'. They say 'except in the last defense of my life, or that of my Warder or another sister'. Or something like that. Bit harder to get around.
Which is why the NEED to be eliminated or radically changed. They hamstring Aes Sedai in so many ways. The "everyone knows we speak the truth" tripe that Siuan used to change Egwene's mind was complete crap.

The AS will find themselves irrelevant if they dont eliminate them. This is before even mentioning the whole "cut ones life in half" issue they present.

I am very hopeful that Egwene will see the Light on that one in the next book. The 3 Oaths make the AS easy meat for the Seanchan.
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:56 PM
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I'm pretty certain most Sedai count being Damane as losing their lives, as it is the end of the control of their lives. Of the things Aes Sedai have already stretched in the books, I don't see this as any kind of stretch. If that were the case, why would the a'dam even matter. Any army could arrive at Tar Valon and announce they were not here to fight or kill Aes Sedai, only the Valon Guard. They could then announce that they were only here to capture Aes Sedai and keep them as slaved, and the Aes Sedai would not be able to weave against them, because being taken as slaves isn't the same as being killed.
  #9  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:58 PM
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Brandon said Egwene might have had difficulty doing what she did in the last Seanchan attack if she'd had bound sisters in her circle, so apparently it is quite the stretch.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:04 PM
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At the time they didn't really know what the Seanchan were. Also, I'm not sure they even knew about a'dam, so all they knew was that they were being attacked and weaved on. For this reason, I am certain most Aes Sedai would have been able to fight back. Then, if you 1. Don't know why they are stealing sisters away on raken or 2. believe that being damane is akin to death, then you can shoot down the raken in defense of the lives of sisters--even if they only live for a very short amount of time afterwards. They could also easily rationalize it that they are a weapon of the enemy which will return for them again, and so killing them now is in defense of their lives.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:07 PM
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At the time they didn't really know what the Seanchan were. Also, I'm not sure they even knew about a'dam, so all they knew was that they were being attacked and weaved on. For this reason, I am certain most Aes Sedai would have been able to fight back. Then, if you 1. Don't know why they are stealing sisters away on raken or 2. believe that being damane is akin to death, then you can shoot down the raken in defense of the lives of sisters--even if they only live for a very short amount of time afterwards. They could also easily rationalize it that they are a weapon of the enemy which will return for them again, and so killing them now is in defense of their lives.
That's an awful large amount of hoops to jump through. I dont really buy it working.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2010, 06:09 PM
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It's a lot of words, but the thought process is relatively quick. What is life is about as obscure a question as what is freedom, or what is liberty.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:48 PM
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They could still shield and still the damane.

While not as effective, it would definitely help.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:03 PM
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Also...it would be really sweet if this didn't turn into an Egwene-hating thread. We can discuss this without getting overly negative about her as a character.
I love that every thread mentioning Egwene has this plea as a pretext. I guess the Amyrlin isn't in high regard these days?
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
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I love that every thread mentioning Egwene has this plea as a pretext. I guess the Amyrlin isn't in high regard these days?
It's a plea because we have multiple 10 page topics on that issue. Is it a surprise that someone wants the topic to be what it was intended? You're obviously just trying to turn it into another one of those by mentioning it at all.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:20 PM
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Isn't it in Knife of Dreams when one Sister says something about being able to channel because she feels in danger? Something like "Ok, I can channel now because I am in danger".

Might not be KoD. I'll look up the quote and post it once I find it. I'm positive Sisters can channel once they feel their lives are in danger.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:22 PM
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Default Grudge match!

Personally, I harbor a secret fantasy that Egwene has a plan to take this particulair confrontation to Fotuona herself before the Seanchan can attack. Eg has a serious grudge against them, and Tuon needs a serious comeuppance. If the AS can see them as a serious enough threat to themselves, I think the oaths can be gotten around. Just a private little hope of mine.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
Isn't it in Knife of Dreams when one Sister says something about being able to channel because she feels in danger? Something like "Ok, I can channel now because I am in danger".

Might not be KoD. I'll look up the quote and post it once I find it. I'm positive Sisters can channel once they feel their lives are in danger.
Was with Perrin at Maldan.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:35 PM
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I'm not entirely sure that much of anything will happen. We know that the White Tower stands in Aviendha's vision, and so it's safe to assume that any attacked won't be completely devastating.

Next, we know that the Seanchan are going to show up on the Fields of Merrilor, they kinda have to be in order for Rand to bow to Tuon and for them to be involved in the Dragon's Peace.

Further, we know from Verin's experience that if a ta'veren needs someone near by things can and will be arranged, even across many, many leagues, that Traveling can and will be interrupted. I'm not entirely sure that this can be done to the point a gateway that they intend to open in one place will open somewhere else. Further, we only have Verin's word about what happened with the Traveling to meet Mat, so this entire point could be irrelevant, taken with a grain of salt, etc.

Additionally to the previous point, I think it's easier said then done to randomly open a gateway into the Tower's basement. Also, given the size and the number of people the Seanchan would want to move in there it'd likely take days, or perhaps so many gateways that it might be discovered.

Where am I going with this? Don't entirely know, just throwing out points. I could possibly see Tuon trying to get to the Tower, but inadvertently ending up on the Fields of Merrilor, but I'm not entirely sure that's possible. It might well be that the entire idea of Egwene having to face the failures of Oaths might be avoided by Rand being there.
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2010, 10:37 PM
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Was with Perrin at Maldan.
With Mat against the Seanchan. Doesn't change how the Oaths are worded - and Mat's frustration at how long it took them to 'feel in danger' is probably explained by him not knowing the wording, or not thinking about it.
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