art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 13: Towers of Midnight
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-09-2010, 11:12 AM
Tower of Ghanja Tower of Ghanja is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 29
Tower of Ghanja will become famous soon enough
Default It's Always Bugged Me...

...that there is no consistency to how the ability to channel works.

Nyneave is able to heal stilling, and it seems clear that there is a physical, that is, biological attribute. So it is part of the body.

Yet when the 'Gars are made, Arangar is a woman who channels Saidin. So it's a part of the soul.

And now we have Moraine having her channeling ability "drained" by the Finns. Are they draining her physically (biological) or are they draining her soul?

Not to mention Fain, whose powers are wholly outside the "rulebook".

I do like to have some rationality backing up the magic in a world. I know, I know, but still...
  #2  
Old 11-09-2010, 11:20 AM
Tarion Tarion is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 78
Tarion is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Ghanja View Post
...that there is no consistency to how the ability to channel works.

Nyneave is able to heal stilling, and it seems clear that there is a physical, that is, biological attribute. So it is part of the body.

Yet when the 'Gars are made, Arangar is a woman who channels Saidin. So it's a part of the soul.

And now we have Moraine having her channeling ability "drained" by the Finns. Are they draining her physically (biological) or are they draining her soul?

Not to mention Fain, whose powers are wholly outside the "rulebook".

I do like to have some rationality backing up the magic in a world. I know, I know, but still...
Actually, I don't think this is too contradictory.

Whether you can channel or not is tied to the soul. Whether you're male or female is tied to the soul.

The extent of your channeling ability is tied to the body. You can be stronger or weaker after being reborn (But not after being reembodied by the DO). Stilling effects your body, but not the soul (and hence, can be healed). I'd assume the Finn's draining works in the same way (We'll have to see if Nynaeve can help Moiraine in some way. I lean towards not, in the same way she can't strengthen Siuan. Then again, stilling her and having an Asha'man heal her could work, but I suspect it won't happen for story reasons)

As for Fain, there are other powers than just the One Power and the True Power. Fain (and Mashadar in general) seem to indicate this, anyway.

For my source, check out these interviews
  #3  
Old 11-09-2010, 11:24 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 184
Edynol will become famous soon enoughEdynol will become famous soon enough
Default

I think the ability to channel and how much is physical, but which power you touch is of the soul. So I think what the 'Finns did to Mo and Lanfear was something physical.

To Tarion: I disagree and the ability to channel being of the soul. I think all souls have the potential to touch the power but won't if their physical bodies don't have the link.

Last edited by Edynol; 11-09-2010 at 11:28 AM.
  #4  
Old 11-09-2010, 03:59 PM
morat'corlm's Avatar
morat'corlm morat'corlm is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 569
morat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to beholdmorat'corlm is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarion View Post
The extent of your channeling ability is tied to the body. You can be stronger or weaker after being reborn (But not after being reembodied by the DO).
But this is one of the cruxes of contradiction. Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar are fully as powerful as Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel; presumably Cyndane has exactly the power level Lanfear had been drained to before being killed. So strength must be an attribute of the soul.

Or perhaps better to say maximum strength is an attribute of the soul. Perhaps Nynaeve and Flinn's healing re-establishes the connection between True Source and the body, via the soul, incompletely.

As for what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear, it was a stupid plot point in both cases but I think we can just assume that what is spiritual and what is physical work differently in Finnland. But how did the Finns manage to hold them in the first place? That's the problem here.
__________________
Siuan clapped a hand atop her head. "I think my skull will explode," she muttered. "You built all of that from two messages, and you don't even know what they said."
Provisional calendar for TOM
  #5  
Old 11-09-2010, 04:33 PM
RDDK RDDK is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 153
RDDK is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by morat'corlm View Post
But this is one of the cruxes of contradiction. Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar are fully as powerful as Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel; presumably Cyndane has exactly the power level Lanfear had been drained to before being killed. So strength must be an attribute of the soul.

Or perhaps better to say maximum strength is an attribute of the soul. Perhaps Nynaeve and Flinn's healing re-establishes the connection between True Source and the body, via the soul, incompletely.

As for what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear, it was a stupid plot point in both cases but I think we can just assume that what is spiritual and what is physical work differently in Finnland. But how did the Finns manage to hold them in the first place? That's the problem here.

It isn't the same thing. Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthemal were given new bodies while at full strength. They were not reborn. Lanfear was given a new body while not at the maximum level. She was not reborn, only put back into the pattern. Because of this, she is the same as she was when she died. Strength is part of the soul-template, but it reboots with each rebirth. What the Dark One does happens before rebirth, and so it is simply the same soul-template being reused as opposed to a complete new identity.

Last edited by RDDK; 11-09-2010 at 04:36 PM.
  #6  
Old 11-09-2010, 04:41 PM
Tarion Tarion is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 78
Tarion is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
To Tarion: I disagree and the ability to channel being of the soul. I think all souls have the potential to touch the power but won't if their physical bodies don't have the link.
Quote:
Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by morat'corlm View Post
But this is one of the cruxes of contradiction. Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar are fully as powerful as Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel; presumably Cyndane has exactly the power level Lanfear had been drained to before being killed. So strength must be an attribute of the soul.
I don't follow. Its pretty clear that being spun out again and having the Dark One cram you into a different body are very different situations. You keep your memories, for example, and they're a part of your physical body, stored in your brain.*

The DO is breaking the rules here, after all. I suppose he doesn't want to risk getting a Morgase-strength channeler instead of a Lanfear.
Quote:
But how did the Finns manage to hold them in the first place? That's the problem here.
How so?

*Props to RDDK for beating me to it
  #7  
Old 11-09-2010, 06:16 PM
Matoyak's Avatar
Matoyak Matoyak is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas - USA
Posts: 1,355
Matoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of light
Default

There used to be something under "Research" that delt with this, iirc. Explained it very well, whatever it was.

IIRC, there are two aspects required in order to channel: a physical part, and a part of the soul. Both have to be there. Or something along those lines.
__________________
*Official Labrat of the TCA*
The Red Hand of Devil's End, the Blight of Bayside, the Filer of Forbidden Texts

[Gawyn] probably pops his collar. - Kivo
Mat's hat is a Darkfriend. - Daekyras
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.