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  #1  
Old 11-10-2010, 11:04 AM
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Default Death to the Dark One: and here is how

As a long term reader and enthusiast, I have spent more hours than I care to imagine talking to my wife and friends about the potential ways for this series to end. After many lengthy discussions I feel I have found an answer that may have been hinted at during the books, and would be a most gratifying ending. This was theorized pre-towers of midnight, and still holds water after reading it a few times.

The first thing I noticed was that Rand declared he wanted to actually kill the Dark One in this incarnation, rather than seal him up. Moridin essentially told him he didn’t understand how stupid that statement was, and most fans have left it at that…but I got to thinking, hasn’t Rand already destroyed part of the Dark One’s essence one time already?

During the Cleansing of Saidin, we find Rand making a titanic funnel out of Saidar which he uses to then channel THE ENTIRETY of Saidin through into Aridhol, aka Shadar Logoth. The taint was essentially strained off of Saidin and into Shadar Logoth where it was annihilated. Keep this in mind for later as I try to tie a few strings together.

Lews Therin Reveals in The Gathering Storm that the reason the patch was weak was because the women did not help the men, and in doing so he says something interesting: “We touched Saidin to Him.” That means that the taint itself was akin to the slime off of an eel, it was the essence of the Dark One himself that tainted Saidin after it was touched to him. This means that when the taint was destroyed, part of the Dark Ones essence was destroyed as well. Now, lets analyze the tool of destruction (Halo reference!)

Shadar Logoth is reiterated in the very first book as a place of utter evil, yet the Trollocs themselves feared it. Why? Because the evil of Shadar Logoth began as Hatred of the Shadow. The people that lived there hated the Shadow SO much that they became corrupt with their hatred, turning on one another in accusation. I rather think this was similar to “The Crucible” with people declaring each other Darkfriends and the whole city devolving into raving terror and destruction. The only thing living in Shadar Logoth was Mashadar…and Mordeth; the incarnation of the evil of the city itself. We’ll get to him in just a second.

Enter…Padan Fain. Fain is “distilled” in what he describes as an INCREDIBLY painful process and his evil essence is fed back to him. This causes him to fear and HATE the shadow he once served. Afterwards, he is forced to follow Rand, Matrim, and Perrin into Shadar Logoth. There he makes an unlikely friend from Mordeth and the two merge into one being.

After Merging with Mordeth, Fain also finds another well of human evil. Recall that the Ogier think the evil of the ways was something created from the evil of man, or the madness of the men that made the ways rather than the Dark One. This is supported by the fact that Machin Shin, The Black Wind, destroys Trollocs as well as humans. HOWEVER, when Fain meets up with Machin Shin, he finds he can understand it and takes a part of it away with him.

As the series has progressed we see that Padan Fain has grown more and more evil, and more and more powerful. In Towers of Midnight he destroys, corrupts, and takes over a fist of Trollocs in moments. My final piece of evidence is not exactly from the books but from Robert Jordan’s own writing style and sense of irony.

Robert Jordan has been seen to properly and ingeniously use many parts of many folktales, fables, and myths in his series thus far. One of the praises that can be found in the front of every Wheel of Time book is the praise “Jordan has come to dominate the world that Tolkein Revealed.” I believe that Padan Fain is going to be Jordan’s Gollum. In the Lord of the Rings series, very early on, Gandalf intercedes on behalf of the life of the creature Gollum. Moirane does EXACTLY the same for Padan Fain. Gollum ends up harrying Frodo to the end of the series, and inadvertently helps Frodo destroy his ancient foe. Thus, the final filaments have been spun, and I can conclude the overtly long theory I have.

Rand is going to end up attempting to do battle with the Dark One, only to have Padan Fain/Mordeth interfere. He is going to spill Rand’s Blood on the Rocks. I am unsure how Alivia is going to help him die here, but that is tangential to my theory. Fain is going to perceive Rand dead, and just as he has said many times before in the books, the only thing he has hated nearly as much as Rand, is the Dark One himself. Fain is going to throw down with the Dark One simply because he is already there and finds it convenient in his own mad psychotic way. They will react to each other like the Taint on Saidin reacted to Shadar Logoth, and both Padan Fain and the Dark One, will cease to be.

While I think this theory has many strong points and is creative, I do hope that I find the ending a total surprise, just so I can say that my favorite novelist of all time is truly unpredictable = )
  #2  
Old 11-10-2010, 11:07 AM
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Harriet stated recently that Fain will not end up being a Gollum type character.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Harriet stated recently that Fain will not end up being a Gollum type character.
I have not heard this. Would be interesting to see how he pans out if not though.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:10 AM
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I have not heard this. Would be interesting to see how he pans out if not though.
It was at a booksigning 2 days ago.

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Source: ToM Tour, NYC, NY Nov 8 Barnes & Noble

Q: (a takeoff on Leigh's review) I've seen this somewhere before : gollum gollum gollum
A: Fain will not end up like Gollum. Though Harriet said he is even crazier than how he was shown in prologue.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:15 AM
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It was at a booksigning 2 days ago.
Nice. Although she shut me down thoroughly it seems before I got started, I still think the idea could have been fun = ). I suppose I'm back to expecting Rand to just Seal the DO up for good again until I can think of anything else sneaky.
  #6  
Old 11-10-2010, 11:39 AM
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Harriet stated recently that Fain will not end up being a Gollum type character.
Thank the light! That's 15 years of dread wiped clean.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:07 PM
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I think you're right - the Dark One's toast!

Quote:
Sha'rah

"The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin."

"When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed. Painfully." (TPoD, Prologue)
If the Fisher (Rand) dies, then victory only comes with "complete annihilation of your enemy".

Jesus Rand = Sacrifice.

Quote:
“Death is no barrier to my master. Save for those who have known balefire. They are beyond his grasp. It is a wonder we can remember them” (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15).
The only way to stop the Dark One gaining control of his soul is Balefire. Alivia knows the weave and has been prophecised to "help Rand die"

Quote:
An intriguing woman. Much too old to become a novice, unfortunately; oh, yes, very unfortunate. She drinks in whatever she's taught. I believe she may know almost every way there is to destroy something with the Power, but she knows almost nothing else." (Winter's Heart, Chapter 32)
We all know that Rand is going to break the world, this is the side affect of the Dark One's annihilation. When the Fisher dies things get bloody..

Quote:
Karethon Cycle

"The Shadow shall rise across the world, and darken every land, even to the smallest corner, and there shall be neither Light nor safety. And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy, he shall stretch forth his hand to catch the Shadow, and the world shall scream in pain of salvation. All Glory be to the Creator, and to the Light, and to he who shall be born again. May the Light save us from him."
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:11 PM
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The ways are corrupted and evil now, but not of the DO type. Could he funnel it all through into there using Callandor or something funky?
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Source: ToM Tour, NYC, NY Nov 8 Barnes & Noble

Q: (a takeoff on Leigh's review) I've seen this somewhere before : gollum gollum gollum
A: Fain will not end up like Gollum. Though Harriet said he is even crazier than how he was shown in prologue.
*Emphasis added

When I was reading that part of ToM I realized that I was imagining fain looking very much like the Joker from the Dark Knight and had to correct myself. Damn you Heath Ledger!
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:05 PM
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Of course killing the DO essential destroys the wheel and the pattern.

Ick to the whole DO gets destroyed time becomes linear blah blah blah.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:32 PM
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Rand himself said that everyone misunderstood his role--he was never meant to be a weapon. As such, I can't imagine it's his plan to kill the Dark One.

I do agree that there will be some kind of sacrifice, possibly involving Rand becoming the willing avatar of the Dark One for a split second before Alivia balefires him. But then again...he's supposed to live again, so who knows?
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp View Post
Of course killing the DO essential destroys the wheel and the pattern.

Ick to the whole DO gets destroyed time becomes linear blah blah blah.
If the DO dies time should disappear completely.
The Wheel is order, and the DO is chaos. But perfect order is immobile and unchanging. There needs be a bit of chaos to make things move. I believe the DO is what makes the WoT spin.

As for Fain, he will certainly be fundamental in the last battle, and the way Shadar Logoth and the DO react to each other will be the key to sealing the DO without the OP touching him.

I think Rand will have to use Fain's power as a buffer, or a glove(a condom perhaps) to separate the OP from the DO.
How he'll do it is a question. Obviously it will not be a Gollum-like deal. Maybe he'll channel him through callandor(its flaw goes deeper than they thought) or he'll be infected by Fain completely, just as he and Moridin become one.

Rand already has both evils in his body, and in that he reflects what's happening to the world(he is one with the land). His blood will wash away the darkness, so it makes sense that he'll take both darknesses into him.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:47 PM
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If the DO dies time should disappear completely.
The Wheel is order, and the DO is chaos. But perfect order is immobile and unchanging. There needs be a bit of chaos to make things move. I believe the DO is what makes the WoT spin.
The catechism in Randland states (as per TGH glossary) the "True Source [is] The driving force of the universe, which turns the Wheel of Time", though that catechism has been quite wrong about other things. You could very well be right.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by morat'corlm View Post
The catechism in Randland states (as per TGH glossary) the "True Source [is] The driving force of the universe, which turns the Wheel of Time", though that catechism has been quite wrong about other things. You could very well be right.
I was never sure about that because it's a staple of fantasy settings to have 2 forces which oppose each other, one which is inherently good and one which is inherently evil.
It bothered me, but I never thought much about it.
But then, RJ is a physicist,so he should have quite clear that movement-chaos- is necessary for the existence of time and life, and in any case in the WoT universe the distance between good and evil isn't so clear-cut, so perhaps it could be possible.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp View Post
Of course killing the DO essential destroys the wheel and the pattern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by metaphor View Post
If the DO dies time should disappear completely.
The Wheel is order, and the DO is chaos. But perfect order is immobile and unchanging. There needs be a bit of chaos to make things move. I believe the DO is what makes the WoT spin.
I have to disagree with both of you - there's no indication that the Creator made the Pattern such that it depends on the Dark One to properly operate. In fact, saying that He "sealed the Dark One away from the Pattern" heavily implies that the DO was not intended to have an effect on the Pattern.

The Pattern and the Wheel aren't "order," they are balance. The Dark One merely tips the balance too far in the direction of chaos and evil, due to his too-strong touch on the Pattern.
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:43 AM
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I don't think the DO can be killed but I think its possible that Rand will find a way to seal him up so completely that he can't be found again. Bit of a stretch I guess.
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Belazamon View Post
I have to disagree with both of you - there's no indication that the Creator made the Pattern such that it depends on the Dark One to properly operate. In fact, saying that He "sealed the Dark One away from the Pattern" heavily implies that the DO was not intended to have an effect on the Pattern.

The Pattern and the Wheel aren't "order," they are balance. The Dark One merely tips the balance too far in the direction of chaos and evil, due to his too-strong touch on the Pattern.
Without the DO history can not repeat itself. It makes major changes to the Pattern itself and we know that the Pattern does not handle major changes well.

I would seriously doubt that the Creator, who is not bound by the wheel and pattern as that DO is, would not know that the DO would have an effect. Actually I do not think the Creator could not know being outside the pattern and not constrained by time.

All that aside, belief that Rand will destroy the DO goes against RJ's comments that there is nothing special about this turning of the wheel. I think the destruction of the DO would count.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:02 AM
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Yeah, "his" death would completely alter the age lace. I also think that the amount of power needed would destroy the world, and the CK are already toast. Plus, wouldn't the Creator just have iced him instead of slapped up a prison had it been possible?
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:03 AM
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The DO isn't required to keep the wheel turning, that's what Saidin and Saidar do. The True Power destroys the pattern, it doesn't help shape it so the world can do without the DO. Moridin says the Wheel keeps fending the DO off and the latter has only to win once to end it all, but what if the Wheel is learning, trying to find a way to rid itself of the DO forever?

I agree that Fain will be involved and it doesn't have to be in a Gollum like capacity. Fain wants to kill everyone. Rand's problem is that he can't use the One Power to touch the Dark One without blowback. The evil of Shadar Logoth can be a buffer between the two. The Cleansing of the taint, the nature of Rand's unhealed wound, the Mashadar's effect on shadowspawn all hint to the conflict between the two evils.

The seal has always been passive. Using Fain as a seal (or focus point for the seal) on the bore will not only shield the OP but would also create an offensive against the DO. If Rand finds that the sealed off wound in his side heals itself, with the 2 evils finishing each other off as Damer Flinn hoped, that will be the proof he needs.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:37 AM
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Do we have a quote from RJ stating that the DO exists in very age even if people don't know about him?

What if Rand killed the DO and in a later age, the DO gets "reborn"? If you just look at how poor little Elayne and Egwene get bashed on this forum (yes, I'm guilty of that too) it's not too hard to imagine an age where the evil acts of humans give rise to the rebirth of the DO.
 

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