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  #1  
Old 11-14-2010, 09:07 AM
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Default Elan/Ishamael/Moridin: the odd duck Forsaken

I enjoy trying to think outside the realm of the obvious theories and questions, and many times I like to come up with a theory that is wildly implausible just to see if I can defend it. It was one such theory that I came up with that I found had much more merit than I initially realized and thought it may be provoking enough of an idea to post it and get some review from other people. It involved Elan/Ishamael/Moridin, and if you will hear it out I think it has some merit. I am going to put a few points out before I name the theory, so try and see if you can come up with it before I name it.

There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again. Ishamael talks about his past fights with Lews Therin/Rand and how the two of them are spun out to fight one another.

There is only one of the Darkfriends/Forsaken that serve the Dark One without the typical failings of ambition, greed, and aspirations of self. When Rand and Moridin are sharing a dream together, Moridin reveals he follows the Dark One out of his own twisted logic. If the light and darkness fight eternally as long as the light keeps winning, and the fight only ends when the darkness finally wins, Moridin reasons that one should serve the darkness since it will have to inevitably win and once done, it is over.

Moridin is the only man who remembers past fights that would be the expected equivalent of The Last Battle. He tells us about all the different strategies he has tried to bring the absolute victory to the Dark One during his reminiscence over his much speculated board game.

Moridin is linked with Rand, they share physical attributes such as pain, like when Rand lost his hand.

I feel the pattern spins out people with a purpose when it brings them back into prominent positions such as the Dragon or the Dragonís antithetical foe. I feel there is a good chance of converting Moridin to the light, if one can shatter his logical worldview. I think the way this could be done would be very reminiscent of how Galadís worldview is broken during the fighting in Towers of Midnight against the Trollocs. Moridin feels one should simply surrender to the Dark Oneís own inevitability, and that one should enjoy the time one has left until he does win. There are a couple of logical points one could prove to Moridin that if done so, I feel may turn him to the Light.

Moridin thinks one should live life until the Dark One is victorious. However, if one could show him that it is far better to enjoy life in times of peace, to know love and happiness instead of pseudopower and false control, he would realize that as long as he fought the Dark One he would have a much more preferable life. If he thinks the Dark One will inevitably win and destroy all of existence, he should feel it is logical to fight him and put that ending off as long as possible, since he would have a MORE enjoyable life in the meantime, and the end results would be the same.

In conclusion, I think that Moridin/Ishamael/Elan has the best knowledge and opportunity to cause the greatest damage to the Dark One. I think he can be turned from the Dark to the Light if he is presented the proper opportunity and the proper lessons, and I feel that if there is any way to rid the Pattern of the Dark One, he has the best shot of revealing it. It may even be that he feels ridding the Pattern of the Dark One is illogical since he told Rand that killing him would be monumentally stupid, but what if he knows some obscure thing that would help to do so if he shared it?
  #2  
Old 11-14-2010, 09:57 AM
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You aren't the first to suggest it. I find it highly unlikely - RJ painted him as a character beyond redemption.
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:43 AM
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You aren't the first to suggest it. I find it highly unlikely - RJ painted him as a character beyond redemption.
It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption. True she says this while speaking about padan fain, but I feel that it could carry weight here as well.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:25 AM
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Would be fun if Fain begged Rand to help him return to the Light.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:37 AM
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It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption.
Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that RJ intended Ishamael to be redeemable.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption. True she says this while speaking about padan fain, but I feel that it could carry weight here as well.
Fans have been theorizing since almost the beginning of the series that one of the Forsaken would turn to the light and I have to say, it seems every time Jordan was broached on the issue he was quite thorough at either shutting it down completely or hinting at how we were misinterpreting the characters. He seems to like Black and White characters.
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Old 11-14-2010, 02:36 PM
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They need an enormous shaft down which Moridin, gavely wounded, can toss the Emperor, I mean, Dark One.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:12 PM
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Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that RJ intended Ishamael to be redeemable.
Could at least lead to a good "We were so close to redeeming him, in the end" moment, though...
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:06 PM
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There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again.
I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:54 AM
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I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?
That is true, but assuming that the author would not leave such important information offscreen, RJ hasn't mentioned any of the other Forsaken being reborn time and again as servants of the Dark One.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:02 AM
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I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?
Ishamael was half mad. Ishamael theorized that this Good/Evil battle had happened repeatedly with him on one side and LTT on the other. That doesnt make it fact.

To quote RJ, "You believed Ishamael?!?"
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:59 AM
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Ishamael was half mad. Ishamael theorized that this Good/Evil battle had happened repeatedly with him on one side and LTT on the other. That doesnt make it fact.

To quote RJ, "You believed Ishamael?!?"
Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.
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Old 11-15-2010, 12:00 PM
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Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.
Stupid interviews...
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Old 11-15-2010, 12:12 PM
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There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again. Ishamael talks about his past fights with Lews Therin/Rand and how the two of them are spun out to fight one another.
This is still a fail though. Ishydin and Rand are definitely intertwined, but we do know that there is very little room for change in the Pattern, some changes it allows, others it doesn't. I would imagine that the forsaken are generally the same souls from one pass of the age to the next.
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:06 PM
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Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.
Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:20 PM
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Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.
If she is referring to the quote I think she is, he merely confirmed that Rand's soul and Ishy's soul are "frequently woven together in the Pattern."
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Old 11-16-2010, 08:42 AM
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Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.
I am not referring to a time when Ishamael spoke with a protagonist, or even another of the forsaken, but when he plays his board game by himself and we see his idle thoughts. Why lie in his own mind? It would accomplish less than nothing. its not a matter of "You believed Ishamael" territory, its a matter of "Ishamael believed Ishamael" in which case I don't think he is mad. The man is too logical, too straightlaced in his service to the Dark One, and too predictable (everything he does is bound to affect the three village boys) to be anything but a Logical Minded, Intelligent, Sane man.
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:00 AM
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You can be totally logical in your train of thought but still have insane conclusions if the given information you're applying logic too is wrong.
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:48 AM
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I think that Ishamael got at least some of his information from the DO, and that makes it just a trifle suspect.
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Old 11-16-2010, 10:15 AM
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I think that Ishamael got at least some of his information from the DO, and that makes it just a trifle suspect.
You mean we can't trust the Father of Lies?
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