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  #1  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:56 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Default Callandor's other fault

I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.

One is that it might lock a circle together. What I mean is this. To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something. But what if using Call binds the circle together, therefore allowing whoever is in control to do whatever he wants despite what those linked to him/her wish?

My other thought is maybe it might be similar to an ad'am, in a way. We know if a man who can channel or learn to channel links with a female dammane, they both die because saidin can't control saidar and vice versa. So what if callandor allows whoever is in control to not just feed of saidar/saidin, having the two work together, but instead to control both, allowing whoever is in control to drain those linked to him, thus removing the safety of linking? We know that in a circle, one cannot cause another to burn out, but what if using the link as a buffer itself comes at the price of allowing those linked to burn out to protect the one in control? Or like the ad'am, it slowly kills all who are linked so it can't be used for an extended length of time?

Like I said, these are just the only things I can think that might possibly hold some weight. If someone has a better idea, please share it. I just wanna know. lol.
  #2  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:00 PM
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To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something.
Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.
  #3  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.
This is correct. Also, the a'dam does not slowly kill people who are linked through it. Are you thinking of the Domination Band (aka e've) that allows bleed-through of the control from the women to the men?

As for the possibility of the buffer coming at the expense of the linked channelers, that exactly contradicts what Cadsuane said about the only safe way to wield Callandor. I wouldn't call it safe, exactly.
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:35 PM
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I think that the flaw is that it can not only channel Saidin, but can also channel the True Power.
  #5  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.
This is explained when they ued the Bowl of the Winds. One cannot be forced to link.

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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
This is correct. Also, the a'dam does not slowly kill people who are linked through it. Are you thinking of the Domination Band (aka e've) that allows bleed-through of the control from the women to the men?
In TGH, is it explained that only females can be sul'dam. And that sometimes men who put on the bracelet wouldkill both themselves and the dammane. There is only one conclusion, that when the man and dammane die, it means the man can learn to channel.

And it kills quickly, not slowly. Whe I say "like" the ad'am, I meant similar, not exactly like it.

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As for the possibility of the buffer coming at the expense of the linked channelers, that exactly contradicts what Cadsuane said about the only safe way to wield Callandor. I wouldn't call it safe, exactly.
It would be safe for a limited time, as long as whoever is in control is careful. I would be 'safer', I should say than using it unaided.
  #6  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about.
Given the context of the discussion it certainly refers to the line of prophecy about how all that is the wielder of Callandor can be seized, and the viewing of Min of an onyx hand holding the sword. No need to get so wildly speculative except in regards to the specific mechanism of the above.
  #7  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:17 PM
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This is explained when they ued the Bowl of the Winds. One cannot be forced to link.
One cannot be forced to enter a link. That is completely different from being able to leave whenever one chooses. Besides, one really can be forced to enter a link, as the BA uses that as a means of torture (but of course the AS and Sea Folk were not aware of this possibility).
  #8  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.

One is that it might lock a circle together. What I mean is this. To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something. But what if using Call binds the circle together, therefore allowing whoever is in control to do whatever he wants despite what those linked to him/her wish?

My other thought is maybe it might be similar to an ad'am, in a way. We know if a man who can channel or learn to channel links with a female dammane, they both die because saidin can't control saidar and vice versa. So what if callandor allows whoever is in control to not just feed of saidar/saidin, having the two work together, but instead to control both, allowing whoever is in control to drain those linked to him, thus removing the safety of linking? We know that in a circle, one cannot cause another to burn out, but what if using the link as a buffer itself comes at the price of allowing those linked to burn out to protect the one in control? Or like the ad'am, it slowly kills all who are linked so it can't be used for an extended length of time?

Like I said, these are just the only things I can think that might possibly hold some weight. If someone has a better idea, please share it. I just wanna know. lol.
Magnifies the taint. Since the taint is the true power it is a sa'angreal for the true power ;-)
  #9  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tiredofbuttons View Post
Magnifies the taint. Since the taint is the true power it is a sa'angreal for the true power ;-)
Rand has used Callandor to channel Saidin and so have others during the Cleansing. It could be possible that Callandor can be used for both or even also for Saidar.
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Old 11-17-2010, 02:15 PM
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Rand has used Callandor to channel Saidin and so have others during the Cleansing. It could be possible that Callandor can be used for both or even also for Saidar.
I didn't say it wasn't a sa'angreal for the one power as well.
  #11  
Old 11-17-2010, 02:25 PM
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Magnifying the taint is probably gonna end up being the important one. Rand's already got a huge amount of darkness trying to eat his brain, so anything that makes him even more vulnerable to mental manipulation is certain to be A Bad Thing. Fortunately he won't be the one in control of the circle so it probably won't really matter if he goes crazy halfway through whatever it is he's gonna end up doing.
  #12  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:06 AM
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Magnifying the taint is probably gonna end up being the important one. Rand's already got a huge amount of darkness trying to eat his brain, so anything that makes him even more vulnerable to mental manipulation is certain to be A Bad Thing. Fortunately he won't be the one in control of the circle so it probably won't really matter if he goes crazy halfway through whatever it is he's gonna end up doing.
I'm pretty sure he is going to be leading the circle. He's the one who has to do the weaves to seal the bore. He knows the weave, and there is no way he can teach to a woman. And only the one leading the circle can actually do weaves. The others are just a power source. And even if he could, there's no way of telling if they'd do it right. Rand has the knowledge and as LTT he has done it before. So for him to not lead the circle would be pointless. That basically would say he isn't even needed for TG because he would just be used as a power source. And if that's all he would be, a dozen or so ashies could stand in for him while he blew up shadowspawn.
  #13  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:20 AM
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Two quick points:

1. There is no taint to magnify at this point...Saidin is clean.

2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...


Quote:
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 27 - The Bargain
"What do you mean about Callandor?" "It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:28 AM
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2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...
So you're saying he should add channelers to the circle until a man can direct the weaves?
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:40 AM
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Two quick points:
2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...
The women guiding the flows part is just AS beingproud thinking they know everything. I don't think that's a real fact. And anyone can lead a circle. It may take a woman to start it, but anyone can be passed lead. And I actually think someone can take the lead by force if the BotW scene is a indication where the Windfinder snatches control before Elayne actually passes it to her. But there might be other variables to concider there. Not sure.

Or actually, Come to think of it, the reason for women guiding the flows is so it doesn't magnify te taint. But now that it's gone, there's no reason a man can't.

Last edited by Edynol; 11-18-2010 at 10:43 AM.
  #16  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
The women guiding the flows part is just AS beingproud thinking they know everything. I don't think that's a real fact. And anyone can lead a circle. It may take a woman to start it, but anyone can be passed lead. And I actually think someone can take the lead by force if the BotW scene is a indication where the Windfinder snatches control before Elayne actually passes it to her. But there might be other variables to concider there. Not sure.

Or actually, Come to think of it, the reason for women guiding the flows is so it doesn't magnify te taint. But now that it's gone, there's no reason a man can't.
It induces wildness as well. Rand (or any man wielding it) could simply lose control using it.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fault which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.
Maybe a SoulTrap like the 2 or 3 that Moridin is wearing. (Azura's Star? anyone who plays Morrowind or Oblivion?"

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized."

"There's a phrase," Min said, "in the Jendai Prophecy. I wish we knew more of them. Anyway, it says 'and the Blade will bind him by twain.'"
MinPOV after Maradon
"Rand al'Thor was the Dragon Reborn. He'd be bled dry, ground down, used up before this was through. It was almost enough to make a woman stop trying."
"There's another phrase, from The Karaethon Cycle. Anyway, I think that Callandor might be flawed beyond that. I think it might . . . Rand, I think it might make you weak, open you to attack, if you use it."

So Rand may be vulnerable to being soul trapped while holding Callandor and Callandor may be a Coursouvra device.

Since it is basically unlimited in some ways by having no buffer maybe good ol' Rand will SoulTrap the Dark One or Moridin inside it. Wouldn't That Kill The Goat?

Or Rand himself, his soul, 'all that he is' is seized by the Blade. Then when Moridin removes Rand's blood, like Semirhage talked about having done before, his body becomes the 'husk' seen in some vision or other.

Then 3 on a boat and he who is dead yet lives, with his soul absent from his body.
That state would be like when a Draghkar consumes the soul before ending the life as Aviendha mentioned to Rand once.

His blood on the Rocks. Check.
he who is dead yet lives. Check

Now if it will BIND HIM BY TWAIN means bound to the two other taveren... "and "the Three shall be One"

The Eye of the World CH:47
(Moiraine to Agelmar)
"They are ta'veren," Moiraine said soothingly. "The Pattern weaves itself around them. Already the Dark One has tried to kill each of them more than once.
Three ta'veren in one place are enough to change the life around them as surely as a whirlpool changes the path of a straw.

When the place is the Eye of the World, the Pattern might weave even the Father of Lies into itself, and make him harmless again."

The pattern reweaves and Bob's your uncle.

Several other things but it is too long already so I will stop.
  #18  
Old 11-18-2010, 11:20 AM
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Davian, you really didn't bold enough.

Quote:
The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."
Caddy only a woman needs to guide the flows because the taint was still in effect, and Callandor magnifies the taint. A woman needed to guide the flows because the male drawing saidin through it would be batshit insane for the duration.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:29 AM
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According to the rules for linking and mixed circles in the BWB, in a circle of two women and one man, any of them can lead. Plus we've see both a man(Damer Flinn) and a woman(Elza) lead such crcles during the fight at the end of WH.

Maybe it's something specific to Callandor.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
It induces wildness as well. Rand (or any man wielding it) could simply lose control using it.
If it induces wildness, then it would affect females as well. But the whole concept of "wildness" I think is silly and something someone made up cause I never heard of it in the series.

Caveatar, I think you have the best theories so far. I think you might be right on one or more of those. That actually gives me an idea. If Rand's soul gets trapped in the blade, this give Ave a huge role. She can read ter'angreal we know, but what if her talent expands beyond that? Or what if Cal is both Sa' and ter'angreal? Seems crazy I know cause how can something be two types of angreal? I myself find it unlikely.

But anyway, what if Ave can somehow figure this out by touching it? We know some angreal are beyond her, like the one in Rhuidian, but maybe her power/talent will grow by that time. So then she can maybe sense Rand's soul and maybe put it back in his body. Or maybe Ny can. And it wouldn't really be like healing death, since it would only be a one time thing, something that can only be done with someone who died using Cal. So we wouldn't have to worry about a weave to heal death getting out and all.

Wild theories I know but I've seen a few theories that most of the forums thought would never happen, happen.
 


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