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  #1  
Old 11-26-2010, 12:35 PM
tardz0r tardz0r is offline
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Default Aviendhas children

I'm stunned. Speachless.

Why?

Well, I just finnished reading one of the last chapters of the book, the one in which Aviendha goes through the ter'angreal in Rhuihdan and learns about the impending doom of her people.

Now, the thing that has me gotten worked up in such a fury, is the part where she views the future of her daughter, padra, who appearently has 3 siblings. How can this not be the most gigantic spoiler of the whole ending of a story ever? I mean, if I've understood this correctly, tehe timeline in TOM is approximately one month away from the last battle, and Aviendha is not yet pregnant. Neither has she any children from before. Therefore, unless she somehow gets herself pregnant with quadruplets in the final volume of twot, it means Rand will survive the last battle so that he can get her pregnant with the other three children.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell didn't wanna know that that was even a possibility.

Clumsily done, and I'm dissapointed. If rand actually survives now, I'll never forgive Sanderson or Jordan, dependig of which of them is to blame.

PS. The reason for this post is the small flicker of hope in the deeper recesses of my heart that some of you see any flaws in my reasoning.
  #2  
Old 11-26-2010, 12:39 PM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Min had a viewing that Avi will have Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart. So this is nothing new.

Last edited by David Selig; 11-26-2010 at 01:13 PM.
  #3  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Min had a viewing that Avi will Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart.
^ this
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:12 PM
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Please also remember Cadsuane's conversation with Min and various Aes Sedai at the end of KoD.

It basically states that if the DO wins, it is the end of the wheel of time and all prophecy is over. Including Miss Elmindreda Farshaw's viewings.
  #5  
Old 11-26-2010, 02:10 PM
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also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.

also, the series has always made it clear that just because something is prohosized does not mean that it will come to pass, the future is always in flux, as is evidenced by Avi's determination to change the future she saw
  #6  
Old 11-26-2010, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Min had a viewing that Avi will have Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart. So this is nothing new.
What he meant is that the Last Battle is getting close, so apparently we should be sure that Rand and Aviendha can't possibly have sex before it, now. Which is not necessarily true.

However, the Aelfinn said he would survive if he died. That's nothing new either.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:25 PM
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Is it taken for granted that Aviendha's visions show the future as it will certainly and unavoidably be?

And if so, is that just because she was sure they were real herself?
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dominominic View Post
Is it taken for granted that Aviendha's visions show the future as it will certainly and unavoidably be?

And if so, is that just because she was sure they were real herself?
I don't really have any quotes to back this up, but I assumed that the visions she sees are the future as it would have happened if she had not gone through the columns. Once she goes through, there are now infinite possibilities because she is going to try to change the outcome. I don't see how the ter'angreal could read her future thread in the pattern if that thread is about to change based on seeing the visions...how would the ter'angreal "know" which course of action she will decide to take?

I suppose you could argue the opposite (that the visions take into account the actions that she will take upon seeing them). Depends on what properties the author decides to give to a magic item reading a magic pattern. It seems difficult to explain realistically though, and it just seems to me like this could be a case in WoT where free will is allowed/encouraged.

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  #9  
Old 11-26-2010, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by amazinglarry View Post
I don't really have any quotes to back this up, but I assumed that the visions she sees are the future as it would have happened if she had not gone through the columns. Once she goes through, there are now infinite possibilities because she is going to try to change the outcome.
Exactly. Some have argued (elsewhere mostly) that she saw the future of Dark Rand, but that makes no sense, partly because there would have been no point in showing her, and partly because Dark Rand led to the Pattern being destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Larry
I don't see how the ter'angreal could read her future thread in the pattern if that thread is about to change based on seeing the visions...how would the ter'angreal "know" which course of action she will decide to take?
Well, it can get complicated, with the mirror worlds. The Pattern is like a supercomputer that uses the mirror worlds - quantum worlds, sort of - as a model for all possible outcomes and their relative probabilities. The Rings of Rhuidean have a more obvious connection to the mirror worlds than the columns, though.
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Well, it can get complicated, with the mirror worlds
Hehe, that's an understatement. Makes it all more interesting though.
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2010, 06:39 PM
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Default ruined ending

Nobody has mentioned the mat and tuon thing.
Maybe it only pissed me off, but when he said mat and tuon would have outriggers after the last battle. WTF!?!
Thanks for telling me mat and tuon will make it out of the last battle just fine.
Sure hope they don't put them in any danger in the battle, cause I sure as hell won't fear anything bad happening to them.
Took me a while to get over that.

Last edited by Elwynn; 11-26-2010 at 08:05 PM. Reason: spelling
  #12  
Old 11-26-2010, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.
Let's be clear - Rand is still one full half Wetlander. It's just that his half is red-blond and light eyed, which is typically a recessive gene, which means that there isn't a good chance of his natural children being born dark haired/ dark eyed when he's procreating with another light haired/ light eyed woman.

The line that Tigraine (and Elayne) are descended from (even in small part) is Ishara's line (hi!) and she was said to be as dark as an Ath'an Miere, so defintely NOT Aiel.
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2010, 08:45 PM
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The characteristic Aiel coloring came from Rand's line, whether it was through Ishara, or Souran Maravaile, or elsewhere in the line.
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2010, 08:48 PM
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What I find interesting is that no one seems to be bringing up the fact that Aviendha's daughter is constantly holding the source.

This to me is very dangerous both to herself and the people around her. For one thing, what happens if she's shielded? Could she survive such a thing or has she become dependent on saidar?

Is this a sign of what channelers will be like in the future or is it only Rand al'Thor's children that have this particular issue. Do the boys have it too? How do you fight and master saidin in your sleep of all things? (excluding channeling in the dream world where you are technically conscious)
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:56 PM
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What I find interesting is that no one seems to be bringing up the fact that Aviendha's daughter is constantly holding the source.
My theory is this: Rand was bonded just before Elayne got pregnant, so the weaves didn't interfere with the babies. Monaelle said they would - that's why Melaine wasn't at the sister-bonding ceremony (from which Elayne stole some of the necessary weaves for the triple-bonding).

So I figure Aviendha will get pregnant before Rand dies, and that when they bond him again after he is ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod that Aviendha's babies will be affected by the re-bonding, perhaps more than Elayne's babies because they are less developed. This might also explain the dark-haired boy, as one of them might take after Min. It might also be what causes the embryo to split into quadruplets, one for each of them.

I will write up my Rand-dies-and-gets-resurrected theory soon enough, with all the relevant quotes.

Of course, this might explain it, but it might also be explained by the simple fact that they started training channelers at the age of ten in the Age of Legends, apparently. Maybe this will give them an edge. Just seems unlikely.
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2010, 09:57 PM
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My theory is that it sounds like Spook from Mistborn.
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Old 11-26-2010, 10:36 PM
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I'm pretty sure that Rand won't die. In Aviendha's view of a possible future, there was a phrase that the Aiels are bittered because the Dragon left them. I think this implies that Rand will leave the main continent if he survives he Last Battle. The only thing that confuses me is the timeline. It seems that Tuon has already died when was breaks out between the Seanchan and the Aiel, but Rand's children are still in their teens of twenties the most. Personally, I think Rand's departure after the last battle is the best that can happen after the Last Battle. I think this is the only way to bring peace to the land, even if time.
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Old 11-26-2010, 10:38 PM
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I'm pretty sure that Rand won't die.
There are at least four prophecies that say he will.
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Old 11-26-2010, 11:13 PM
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There are at least four prophecies that say he will.
All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.
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Old 11-26-2010, 11:45 PM
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All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.
The Finn tell him he will die...in order to live.

So, he's gonna die.

FWIW, I agree with your point of the prophecies only implying his death. The most that any of the characters who are very knowledgeable of the prophecies have stated is that they "heavily imply" that his death is necessary. Still, the Finn answer is pretty definite.
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