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  #1  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:55 AM
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Default Have you seen this child, his name is Gaidal Cain

anyone have any insight? He was last seen in TAR by his beloved Birgitte, supposedly was spun back into the pattern before she was ripped out. Will Sanderson find him for us? Will we see him again with the horn? Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:25 AM
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I find myself still emotionally tied to it being Olver, although I realize the timing and Olver's age doesn't work.

Kind of silly actually, I would rather see some ridiculous breaking of WoT rules or some 'new' rules invented so it could be Olver rather than some two-year-old.

I had a pet theory/hope that Olver would still somehow go with Mat and Thom to the Tower of Ghenjei and give himself up (or twenty years of life or something) to the Finns and 'become' Gaidal Cain. I figured Noal would betray Mat and Thom but Olver would sneak into the Tower by himself and save everybody.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:39 AM
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I find myself still emotionally tied to it being Olver, although I realize the timing and Olver's age doesn't work.
I've never understood why the timing necessarily screws it up - it has never been established either when a soul is gained by a person in the first place in WoT, or how the heroes are spun out.

It's theoretically plausible that WoT people only get souls at a certain age, and 10 years old could be that age, in theory. Alternatively, it's plausible that heroes' souls are sort of "merged" with appropriate people when necessary, at a young age.

Having said this, RJ confirmed in an interview that Olver is not Gaidal Cain, no uncertainty at all, no wiggle room for it to be twisted. Olver is more than just a red herring, though - apparently, he's significant in some other way.


I do wonder if maybe Gaidal Cain has been hinted at somewhere specifically - maybe there was a pregnancy noted around the time he disappeared, or we've seen a woman with an ugly baby in a scene. I can't believe that RJ would have made it so clear that Gaidal has been reborn, yet not provide any hints whatsoever on where he'll show up. I'll keep my eye out for it on my next read-through.

Actually, RJ specifically points out that Gaidal wasn't reborn to fight the last battle, but for a future purpose. This leads me to wonder - could he have been reborn into the Black Tower's camp? Maybe he's the son of one of the Asha'man and his wife? This would place him close enough that there's a good chance that he would meet with Birgitte, give him a potential purpose for being reborn (there's going to be problems arising during the re-merging of the Aes Sedai and Asha'man, and Birgitte does point out that in one previous life, she helped with the founding of the White Tower), and enable him to appear "on-camera" in a subtle manner without having to be in the presence of any major character at the time.
  #4  
Old 12-08-2010, 11:10 AM
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It's theoretically plausible that WoT people only get souls at a certain age, and 10 years old could be that age, in theory.
What? Are you saying that people walk around for the first 10 years without a soul?

I've always known children are evil, but ...?!?
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:21 PM
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What I never get a straight answer on is the timing. Now Birgitte did say that Cain was woven back into the Pattern before her. What we do not know is how the passage of time works, okay, what has not been explained to me is how the passage of time works. Do we know for sure that a day here is a day in the Dream? It has always been my contention that Gaidal is out in the world, and yes he may be younger than Birgitte, but not a baby. I always figured that it might be a case like with one of Mat's tales where a guy comes out with a gray beard and a pocket full of gold... Gaidal may be floating around at the age of 20 or something.

OTOH this may be a chance for the Wheel to do a reboot. If Birgitte dies at the end of this story, she will probably get rebound to the Wheel and maybe spun out again, following the proper chronology where she is younger than Gaidal.
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  #6  
Old 12-08-2010, 12:21 PM
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Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid. We know he's too young for Birgitte, and them getting together in this spinout seems unlikely. But she's in a dangerous position as Elayne's warder. What if, somehow Elayne dies in childbirth or something (sure, her kids will be fine, but wouldn't that be poetic justice?), and Birgitte goes all warder crazy and manages to get herself killed as well? And then she is reborn as an infant. And wouldn't it be cool if she's reborn as one of Elayne's brats?
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:41 PM
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Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid. We know he's too young for Birgitte, and them getting together in this spinout seems unlikely. But she's in a dangerous position as Elayne's warder. What if, somehow Elayne dies in childbirth or something (sure, her kids will be fine, but wouldn't that be poetic justice?), and Birgitte goes all warder crazy and manages to get herself killed as well? And then she is reborn as an infant. And wouldn't it be cool if she's reborn as one of Elayne's brats?
Now I am all over the Elayne dying angle- but I think that would drive Rand and the other girls crazy... And I always figured Birgitte would not make it to the end of this. I always figured she would die before Mat sounded the Horn and then Mat would call her back right away as he sounds the thing.
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  #8  
Old 12-08-2010, 04:16 PM
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Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid.
Jur and Sora's son was already three or four years old -- and in possession of his own soul -- while Gaidal was still in T'A'R. I thought the same thing when Jur told Perrin his son was homely.

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...how the passage of time works. Do we know for sure that a day here is a day in the Dream? It has always been my contention that Gaidal is out in the world, and yes he may be younger than Birgitte, but not a baby. ...
Time runs strangley in T'A'R but it does NOT run backwards. No person living while Gaidal was known to be in T'A'R can be Gaidal reborn.

No Child not born within nine months of Gaidal's disappearance from T'A'R can be Gaidal Reborn.

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I've never understood why the timing necessarily screws it up - it has never been established either when a soul is gained by a person in the first place in WoT,
IIRC, RJ said that a soul becomes incarnated at conception. His answer, in context, is in Terez' interview database in her signature link

However, I think he also said that Gaidal was already reborn and a babe-in-arms somewhere which doesn't fit with the "ensouled at conception" explanation.

Personally, I think a child breathing in its assigned soul with it's first breath fits the rest of the WOT cosmology better, but The Creator has spoken (and destroyed a cherished theory of mine in the process.)

Ten years before getting a soul or a Hero's soul replacing the soul the body was born with are totally out of the question -- the latter is the DO's tactic and definitely non-heroic.


Birgitte reported that Gaidal had been spun out on Day 512 according to the WOT Chronology That means Gaidal woul have been reborn no later than day 782. Look for a babe born sometime between tFoH Ch 14 and TGS Ch30.
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  #9  
Old 12-08-2010, 08:38 PM
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Now I am all over the Elayne dying angle- but I think that would drive Rand and the other girls crazy... And I always figured Birgitte would not make it to the end of this. I always figured she would die before Mat sounded the Horn and then Mat would call her back right away as he sounds the thing.
It just seems like something's going to happen to her, since she's relying on Min's viewing so much and feels that she's invincible. Her scuffle with the Black Ajah just didn't seem like it was enough.

[QUOTE=Weird Harold;134611]Jur and Sora's son was already three or four years old -- and in possession of his own soul -- while Gaidal was still in T'A'R. I thought the same thing when Jur told Perrin his son was homely.

You're right, of course. However, I did have a crazy dream one night shortly after reading ToM, and it involved Grady's son - he was aging faster than he should have been. Even though he was only a few years old, by the time the get-together at the Field of Merrilor happened, he was at least the age of Olver. Then he ended up being Olver. I can't remember the whole thing. It also involved stasis boxes that were bunkers a mile long underground. But I woke up convinced he was Gaidal.

I really shouldn't fall asleep reading while the TV is still on. I think it was on the History Channel and Cities of the Underworld was on. That's a great way to have really strange dreams.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:49 PM
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It just seems like something's going to happen to her, since she's relying on Min's viewing so much and feels that she's invincible. Her scuffle with the Black Ajah just didn't seem like it was enough.
Yeah, if one guy with a sock full of quarters was standing by we'd all be at peace with the whole thing. I had visions of her walking down the field while the Dragons Eggs are going off thinking to herself, "gee, Min's viewings says I'll be okay..."
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:18 PM
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Default Who is most likely Gaidal Cain? Uno Nomesta.

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anyone have any insight? He was last seen in TAR by his beloved Birgitte, supposedly was spun back into the pattern before she was ripped out. Will Sanderson find him for us? Will we see him again with the horn? Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?

If Wolves and Man, can be both in the 'Dream worlds' and in the 'True world'... what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?

Remember Boundless is both a man and one who can enter the Wolf Dream? (TofM book) Boundless did not walk in the Dream, as a normal man for a very long time. Yet we're told Wolves are always in both places? Is that false? Can one become a Wolf in his heart, at a later time? Yes.



What is to say Birgitte has not already met Gaidal Cain in person, within the story? And yet, even she does not know this? Hence, all of Birgitte's later crying in Samara and Caemlyn over missing Gaidal Cain. (CoT, Ch. 11 'Talk of Debts')


Who is possibly an adult, who is Gaidal Cain? Whom Birgitte has already met in the story?

Uno Nomesta.

A one-eyed, ugly man, who inspired Mat, Perrin and Rand's actions, thoughts at times throughout the series. Laugh, he is a man who even inspired enough anger in Nynaeve, for her to be channel and heal Logain's stilling.

Quote:
Rough-tongued Uno, with a long scar down his face and only one eye.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Rand pov

A man who lived to survive the 'Numbers of Chaos'... Who saw his own future possibilities, as did also, Ragan and all the Shienarians with Verin, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Loial. (TGH, Ch. 37 'What Might Be' - Rand pov)


Who is Uno last known to be with?
Leading the 'heavy cavalry' for Egwene al'Vere's and Gareth Bryne's Aes Sedai armies. (TFoH, Ch. 50; LoC, Ch.8; TPoD, Ch.17, TPoD, Ch.19)

Meanwhile Birgitte is responsible for Elayne's Queen Guard and Andoran soldiers ultimately.
Gaidal Cain and Birgitte each have the chance to re-connect their own legendary love story, in AMoL book. Uno is exactly Birgitte's type of man.


Quote:
Rubbing a knuckle across her lips, Birgitte frowned. “Thom and Juilin are good men, but the best way to avoid trouble is to make sure no one wants to trouble you. A dozen or so Shienarans in armor—or out—would go a long way toward that. I don’t understand you and Uno. He is tough, and he’d follow you (Nynaeve) and Elayne into the Pit of Doom.” A sudden grin bloomed on her face. “Besides, he’s a well-set-up fellow.

“We do not need anyone to hold our hands,” Nynaeve told her stiffly. Well set up? That painted eyepatch flashed queasily across her mind, and the scars. The woman had the strangest taste in men. “We can handle anything that comes our way. I’d think we’ve already proved that, if it needed proof.”

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 12 "Questions and Answers" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Birgitte
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:43 PM
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I have no idea who Cain is, but I'm guessing that child is likely to play a part in the "outrigger" novels
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:01 AM
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what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not Uno?
sanity

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Old 12-09-2010, 01:14 AM
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...what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?
Uhm... Just maybe RJ's assertion that OLVER is obviously TOO OLD TO BE GAIDAL REBORN!

If Olver is too old to be Gaidal, what does that say about Uno, who is four or five times as old?
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:42 AM
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Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?
On a random note here, has anyone read the novels Ghost King and The Last Sword of Power by David Gemmell?

Theres a similar sort of plot device between Lancelot and Guinavere. (Awesome novels too.)
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:50 AM
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Having said this, RJ confirmed in an interview that Olver is not Gaidal Cain, no uncertainty at all, no wiggle room for it to be twisted. Olver is more than just a red herring, though - apparently, he's significant in some other way.
Olver played a role already. He is one of the key persons to learn Mat to take responsibility for others in his care. Made Mat a careful and caring general and that is why the band loves him too. He keeps them alive (and yes his luck comes into play too)

his continued playing of snakes and foxes gave our tower trio info about the realm of snakes and foxes.

future role? maybe but no he is not a red herring
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:24 AM
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Uhm... Just maybe RJ's assertion that OLVER is obviously TOO OLD TO BE GAIDAL REBORN!

If Olver is too old to be Gaidal, what does that say about Uno, who is four or five times as old?
LOL

- Not to mention that Uno is okay with a sword, but I wouldn't give him Hero of the Horn status because of it. Heck, he looks on Galad with respect because of what Galad could do with a sword and we all know that Galad is not perfect either. I get the impression that Gaidal Cain is a step above.

Edit- my 100th post Whoot! er... sorry, it is a TOR thing for me
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:53 AM
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If Wolves and Man, can be both in the 'Dream worlds' and in the 'True world'... what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?
Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:34 AM
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Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca.
Gaidal Cain cannot be Luca - he's too pretty by half. My new vote is that Gaidal has been reborn as... Padan Fain. He was remade when he went to Thakan'dar, right? He doesn't want to think about what happens there. What would be more horrible for a super darkfriend to have a new soul from a hero of the horn? The internal conflict alone would drive him batshit enough to be Fain. Remade... reborn... What was the time line? Maybe roughly when Gaidal was spun out? Hmmmm.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:13 AM
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Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca.
Right. I will not say you are bonkers... because as I followed that thread, others have said just that- or they drank the kool aid, in which case their opinions are invalid as they are crazy as well. Anyways beyond the rapid 5 week aging process and Luca being ta'veren?! You also kinda skipped over his swordsmanship I seemed to have missed Luca on the blademaster's rankings
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