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  #1  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:18 PM
feydrutha feydrutha is offline
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Default Could Tuon be the third in the callandor circle?

Hi everyone,

this is my first post here though I've been lurking a bit lately. Created an account because this little idea is nagging me, and seems so obvious that I am wondering why nobody seems to have thought of it (or if there is any evidence to rule it out).

I know moraine is back and has a role to play, but it doesn't have to be callandor, so we are still missing a second woman (with nynaeve being the first) to link with rand.

So, the seanchan have a prophecy that the dragon must kneel to the crystal throne. I seem to recall (though I couldn't find it in the prophecy section at wotfaq) that there was some similar indication that he had to be controlled or guided in some way by the white tower (any pointer to a specific reference for this would be appreciated).

Given the symmetry, it seems that one way for Rand to yield to both white tower and seanchan would be to be in a circle with nynaeve and tuon (where as we know the two women will be in command). And given her experience as a suldam, I think tuon could be partially happy with th arrangement (partially because she'd be sharing the honor with a marath damane..).

any thoughts on this?

ciao,
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:39 PM
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My thought was Egwene and Tuon, but I'm coming to doubt they will participate in the final circle using Callandor, though they may join a Domination Band-facilitated circle briefly as a proof of concept. And as for roles to play, the foreshadowing that Nynaeve will play a role in resurrecting Rand is too powerful to ignore; her role in the endgame would seem almost too large. But it seems certain that two of these five will take part:

Egwene
Tuon
Moiraine
Nynaeve
Alivia

I am not aware of a prophecy stating that the Dragon must obey the White Tower, other than the beliefs of various Aes Sedai that it must be so.
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feydrutha View Post
Hi everyone,

this is my first post here though I've been lurking a bit lately. Created an account because this little idea is nagging me, and seems so obvious that I am wondering why nobody seems to have thought of it (or if there is any evidence to rule it out).
I posted on this a few weeks ago.

Quote:
So, the seanchan have a prophecy that the dragon must kneel to the crystal throne.
IMO the more relevant ones are those that Tuon paraphrased (quoted in the linked post).

Quote:
I seem to recall (though I couldn't find it in the prophecy section at wotfaq) that there was some similar indication that he had to be controlled or guided in some way by the white tower (any pointer to a specific reference for this would be appreciated).
The closest thing I can think of would be Rand's dream in TEOTW ch. 9, if you consider it to be prophetic (I do). But all it really indicates is that Rand must go to the Tower at some point or another, which he has now done.
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:48 PM
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Default Furthermore...

...linking with tuon could also count as "binding the nine moons to him". This way the seanchan and randland prophecies do not have to be an either-or proposition.

I have read some people consider the dragon kneeling to the crystal throne a falsehood present only because ishmael corrupted the seanchan version of the prophecies. I do not quite know/remember where this idea comes from. But if aviendha's visions in rhuidean depict a possible future, it is a future in which the DO was defeated and rand did bow to the crystal throne:

Quote:
"The Dragon's Peace-"
"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."
(I got this quote from someone on the nakomi thread)

So the corruption, if it is present, may be in the sense of formulating the prophecy in such a way as to make it seem the seanchan are on top, something that I would expect could happen just because of their cultural bias over the course of the centuries, not in the sense of turning it into a dark prophecy that, if fulfilled, will cause the DO to win.
  #5  
Old 12-19-2010, 03:52 PM
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(see above post if you missed it)

Also, I think that the Dark prophecies will be fulfilled either way. They don't guarantee the Dark One's victory any more than the Karaethon Cycle guarantees the Light's victory (no matter how it might seem - the wording is vague enough).

I believe that the corruption was Ishamael's attempt to cause chaos at the Last Battle, but that they will find a way to fulfill all of the prophecies, real or not, without causing any real harm.
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  #6  
Old 12-19-2010, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I posted on this a few weeks ago.
Ah, hi terez, I guess I missed that thread. Thanks for the pointer.

Quote:
IMO the more relevant ones are those that Tuon paraphrased (quoted in the linked post).
Yes, the empress sending the dragon to battle definitely sounds like she is controlling him through callandor.
  #7  
Old 12-19-2010, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by morat'corlm View Post
I am not aware of a prophecy stating that the Dragon must obey the White Tower, other than the beliefs of various Aes Sedai that it must be so.
It seems those sneaky Aes Sedai have managed to convince me about it as well...
  #8  
Old 12-19-2010, 04:28 PM
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Just my opinion, but no way in hell. One reason of many being that it doesn't fit with the rest of the books. I simply don't see it coming about. While vast and epic, the WoT is fairly straightforward and this is one curveball I don't see happening. Most things that happen are unsurprising; I talked about this pre-ToM and everyone thought I was nuts, they thought there were going to be grand twists and shocking turns of events. Instead, we (surprise, surprise) got one more epic yet straightforward WoT book (like all the others) NOT a la Lost.

To sum up: my opinion is No. Basing off previous similar prophecies, I believe the Tuon controlling Rand will end up coming to fruition, but in a pretty mundane and non-awe-inspiring way. That's been the way of them, at least lately.
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Last edited by Toss the dice; 12-19-2010 at 04:34 PM.
  #9  
Old 12-19-2010, 08:13 PM
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I have a hard time seeing that happening. For one thing, Tuon still can't channel on her own and wouldn't be able to contribute much, if anything, to the circle. Secondly, if Tuon were to be given control of the circle, Rand and Nynaeve would be completely defenseless if she decided to collar them afterwards. I don't see either of them trusting her that much even if she's Mat's wife.

There's got to be an easier way than that for Rand to submit to Tuon.

RAND: So, I'll be your—what did you say it was called, da'covale?—for a week and dress accordingly. Well, that doesn't sound too hard.
And I suppose you'll want to keep Tuli and Suffa. I guess I can live with that—grudgingly, mind!—as a gesture of goodwill.
How about we sweeten the deal with this cool sword from your ancestor, as well as permanent access to his misty ghost through the Horn of Valere and person who sounded it. How's that sound?

TUON: (completely fails to realize she already has the Hornsounder) Excellent!
  #10  
Old 12-19-2010, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice View Post
Just my opinion, but no way in hell. One reason of many being that it doesn't fit with the rest of the books.
That's a bullshit statement. Try to explain what you mean.

Quote:
While vast and epic, the WoT is fairly straightforward and this is one curveball I don't see happening.
It's not a curveball; RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Tuon was introduced. The Empire is important; Tuon is important. She thinks she's just as important at Rand, and in a way, she might well be right.

Quote:
Most things that happen are unsurprising; I talked about this pre-ToM and everyone thought I was nuts, they thought there were going to be grand twists and shocking turns of events. Instead, we (surprise, surprise) got one more epic yet straightforward WoT book (like all the others) NOT a la Lost.
There have been so many twists throughout the series that it's pretty moronic to argue that the relative lack of them in TOM means anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
I have a hard time seeing that happening. For one thing, Tuon still can't channel on her own and wouldn't be able to contribute much, if anything, to the circle.
It doesn't matter because 1) she could begin channeling at any time, and 2) she might could be guided to her first touching by the circle. She already knows the weaves; she performs them herself through the a'dam.

Quote:
Secondly, if Tuon were to be given control of the circle, Rand and Nynaeve would be completely defenseless if she decided to collar them afterwards. I don't see either of them trusting her that much even if she's Mat's wife.
This is certainly debatable. I lean towards Mat trusting her if she gives her word, and Rand and Nynaeve trusting Mat. They might also BIND her with the Oath Rod, if they don't trust her, but I tend to think that the Oath she will be forced to take will be a promise to set the damane free after the Last Battle (there likely won't be time before).
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:05 PM
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I can't imagine Tuon would be strong enough to be a worthwhile 3rd. And she knows the Seanchan battle weaves, but that's it. And why would Rand trust her?

Sure, Jesus Rand seems less distrustful of AS in general now, but then why Nynaeve as the 1st?

1) She's powerful
2) He trusts her

If he's going to have a 2nd women in charge of controlling him, why would he toss out those requirements?

So he'd want someone powerful and/or that he trusts.

Alivia (he knows she'll help him, so there's a sort of trust there. And she's very powerful.)

Moiraine (who shows up just in time. He trusts her more than any other AS, and with the Angreal she has she'll be strong enough, though not powerful)

Avi (his powerful lover)

Elayne (less likely, since occupied, but another powerful lover)


And, to boot, why would Tuon, who detests Unleashed Ones so much, willingly LINK (an ability they'd have to TEACH her and thus teach ALL Seanchan) with not only Nynaeve, but an Unleashed male as well? We'd have to be talking about using a male a'dam here.


It goes against 2 characters deep seated fears and distrusts. And I doubt Nynaeve would want to have Tuon with her, to boot!


Quote:
if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain." -Rand al'Thor
RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.


And if Rand is planning on some sort of deal to make Tuon promise to free the damane, then we should have seen something of that in Avi's vision. You can argue that now that she's had the vision she can try to influence Rand to strike that bargain. Fine. Maybe.



But still Tuon is unlikely. She hasn't BEEN using the OP for years. She doesn't have to order damane to make them, but the damane are still doing the channeling. She can just see the weaves, so she's giving commands through the a'dam to make certain weaves.
  #12  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CreationEdge View Post
I can't imagine Tuon would be strong enough to be a worthwhile 3rd.
1. They're going to be using Callandor. Her strength probably won't make much difference.

2. She's been working so closely with the Power for so many years that she is far more skilled than sul'dam who are much older than she is. She doesn't even have to tell the damane what to do, or use pain as incentive to make the damane channel something. She does it herself through the link.

Quote:
And she knows the Seanchan battle weaves, but that's it.
Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 25 - Attending Elaida

“Don’t be foolish, Toy,” she had drawled in his tent, standing over him, arms folded beneath her breasts, while Lopin and Nerim plied their needles and he gritted his teeth. Her proprietary air, very much a woman making sure her property was repaired properly, had been enough to make him grind his teeth, never mind the needles. Or that he was down to his smallclothes! She had just walked in and refused to leave short of manhandling, and he had felt in no condition to manhandle a woman he suspected might be able to break his arm. “This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the Power touch them. Half my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the Blood, too, I shouldn’t be surprised. But I wouldn’t have expected it of you.” If she had a quarter his experience of Aes Sedai, she would have.
Tuon is not the type to limit herself; she's likely learned much from Mylen and other former Aes Sedai.

Quote:
And why would Rand trust her?
I already said. He trusts Mat perhaps more than anyone else in the world besides Perrin and Nynaeve and his harem. And Tam. If Mat vouches for her - which might take some work on Tuon's part - then Rand will trust her.

Quote:
Sure, Jesus Rand seems less distrustful of AS in general now, but then why Nynaeve as the 1st?

1) She's powerful
2) He trusts her

If he's going to have a 2nd women in charge of controlling him, why would he toss out those requirements?
1. Because Tuon and all the rest of the Seanchan believe in their prophecies, whether or not they are corrupted. This will fulfill their prophecies.

2. Rand knows that the two must be as one - that he has to make a truce, a deal...something before he can win the Last Battle.

3. The requirements need not be tossed out anyway (see above).

Quote:
And, to boot, why would Tuon, who detests Unleashed Ones so much, willingly LINK (an ability they'd have to TEACH her and thus teach ALL Seanchan) with not only Nynaeve, but an Unleashed male as well? We'd have to be talking about using a male a'dam here.
1. Because it's the only way to fulfill the prophecies.

2. Because there will be three ta'veren at the Field of Merrilor.

3. Mat.

4. It may be that the idea of swearing on the Oath Rod to never channel again will appeal to her. But I'm hoping that this is what happened in the future that Aviendha saw, and that something else will happen in the real future.

Quote:
I doubt Nynaeve would want to have Tuon with her, to boot!
She will get over it.

Quote:
RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.
Yeah, we know. I'm aware of the other possibilities and the arguments for them. I just think that Tuon is one of the strongest candidates for other reasons.

Quote:
And if Rand is planning on some sort of deal to make Tuon promise to free the damane, then we should have seen something of that in Avi's vision. You can argue that now that she's had the vision she can try to influence Rand to strike that bargain. Fine. Maybe.
No, I'd think that's pretty definite. The future ain't happening like that. There will be major changes, and I believe that Aviendha's proposal at Merrilor will end up tying the Aiel to the Seanchan.

Quote:
She doesn't have to order damane to make them, but the damane are still doing the channeling.
No, they're just supplying the Power. Tuon obviously does the channeling herself - it's too quick for it to be anything else. Nynaeve did the same with Moghedien when she was not angry enough to channel:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
PROLOGUE - The First Message

Delicately she probed with the One Power, first at Siuan, then Leane. In a manner of speaking, she was not channeling at all. She could not channel a scrap unless angry, could not even sense the True Source. Yet it came to the same thing. Fine filaments of saidar, the female half of the True Source, sifted through the two women at her weaving. They just did not originate with her.
Clearly, Nynaeve is doing the weaving even though the weaves 'originate' with Moghedien.
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  #13  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:39 PM
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I don't think it will be Tuon but I don't agree with many of the reasons against it listed here.

They would end up trusting her. It's been pounded into our heads that Tuon has never (ever ever) broken her word on anything. Mat can vouch for her.

I dislike any theory about Tuon being collared or forced to swear on the oath rod. It would destroy her character (in my mind anyway). She's going to come to the right decisions on her own, not through the use of force. If not, I will be a very sadface. (I know the theory says bind but I still say that could just be related to Mat and her being married).
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:02 AM
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I don't think Tuon will be the 3rd for a few reasons.

1. She herself has never actually channeled. So no experience there.
2. Lest we forget Rand and her's prior meeting? Yeah, that didn't go so well. So they will probably end up on the same side, I just don't see that kind of trust between them.
3. Just a little soon for the ruler of an empire that makes it a habit of enslaving every woman that can channel, to link with the Dragon Reborn by using one of the most powerful objects in regards to the OP in history.

So yeah, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
I don't think Tuon will be the 3rd for a few reasons.

1. She herself has never actually channeled. So no experience there.
Try reading what I've actually written.

Same for the rest of your post, really.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:38 AM
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[QUOTE=Terez;136117]She already knows the weaves; she performs them herself through the a'dam.[/QUOTE}
But what weaves? The Dark One won't be defeated by a ball of Fire, or earth explosions, or even a basic Healing weave.

If there is to be any weaving at all, it must be incredibly complex. Which is why RJ had Nynaeve start showing great ability with complex weaves just before Rand asked her to help him.

The only other person with that kind of ability, IMO, is Egwene. Notice that when she makes a complex eavesdropping weave in ToM, Elayne is awed, but Nynaeve just nods. I think the clear signal there is that only Nynaeve and Egwene have reached a point in their channeling where they can weave anything complex enough to defeat the DO.

Further, Egwene is stronger than Elayne and Avi (the two other alternatives Rand suggested) and also is strongly linked to Vora's sa'angreal (itself paralleled a little with Callandor).

Also, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve make excellent sense as the origninal trio of channelers from the Two Rivers. There's a reason they lived there, and why they all have such special relationships with each other.

Further, Egwene is the lightside parallel to Lanfear. How fitting that the Light's version of Lanfear will be the one to help Seal the bore the actual Lanfear helped open.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:49 AM
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Further, Egwene is the lightside parallel to Lanfear.
She is? Lanfear, before her whole jealousy thing at the docks ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind), was willing to share the Power of the Choedan Kal with Rand. Eggy demands everyone bow to her, including poor Gawyn. Frankly, Lanfear went on a murderous rampage when she found out that Rand had slept with Aviendha. Eggy was just being a stuck up b*tch with Gawyn.

So, no, I don't think that Eggy is the "light" version of Lanfear. Otherise, I would have to go with Lanfear as the prefferable one.
Maybe Nynaeve would be a better example?
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:24 AM
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She is? Lanfear, before her whole jealousy thing at the docks ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind), was willing to share the Power of the Choedan Kal with Rand.
Yeah, because believing the Foresaken on their promises is oh so wise...

Quote:
Eggy demands everyone bow to her, including poor Gawyn.
Because she holds a position that can easily be undermined by shows of disrespect. See Elayne's explanation to Gawyn.

Quote:
Frankly, Lanfear went on a murderous rampage when she found out that Rand had slept with Aviendha. Eggy was just being a stuck up b*tch with Gawyn.
What is the connection? On the flip side, when Egwene thought she was going out with Rand, and found that Elayne and Min were in love with him, she did not flip out, and actually helped Elayne. That's why she's the Lightsides mirror of Lanfear.

Quote:
So, no, I don't think that Eggy is the "light" version of Lanfear. Otherise, I would have to go with Lanfear as the prefferable one.
Maybe Nynaeve would be a better example?
No she wouldn't. Nynaeve never had a relationship with Rand. She has no Dreamwalking Talent. She is not linked to the moon and the color white. She did not lose her place as Rand's lover to a golden haired woman. She hasn't gained power independent of Rand (a direct contrast to Lanfear who wanted to use Rand to gain power). She can't possibly be a parallel to Lanfear.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 12-20-2010 at 02:26 AM.
  #19  
Old 12-20-2010, 05:47 AM
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morat'corlm morat'corlm is offline
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Yeah, because believing the Foresaken on their promises is oh so wise...
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Originally Posted by WH35
She would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!
Believing internal monologue is fraught with the same concerns about credibility, as we have numerous examples to demonstrate in this series, but I think this is an indication she'd believed the offer had been honest at the time. Whether she might have tried to go back on it later is another matter.
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  #20  
Old 12-20-2010, 07:06 AM
feydrutha feydrutha is offline
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RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.
I think rand's trust problems have been solved now that he is in Jesus mode, I don't think moriaine's role in the last battle is just to be an Aes Sedai that rand can trust, that would be quite an anticlimax at this point. OTOH, Rand's trust of her can serve to convince him to do as she advises, of course. She must have gained some information or something that will be essential in the last battle, but i doubt it requires her to wield callandor.
 

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