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  #1  
Old 11-06-2010, 05:21 PM
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So, the first question...

Were the viewing she saw of the future destined to happen? No matter what?!?

Or can they be changed, as she hopes?

If they are a certainty, what did we possibly learn?

Well, first off...

Obviously the last battle against the dark one is won, as there is still a pattern. Not that I thought the series would end with the Dark One winning, but victory is certain now.

Rand will really die and not return. The last viewing, the most recent being just 17 or so years after the last battle, and his alliance's have crumbled.

Elayne is no longer Queen. So that is interesting as well. Does she die at the last battle??? Unlikely, as her daughter is now queen, but she does die way young.

The black tower and white tower will NOT unify. They were separate entities in these viewing.

The Black tower gets cleansed of darkfriends, as they are still fighting the Seanchan.

An alliance with the Seanchan and the rest of the nations occurs. All except the Aiel.

These 'viewings' are one of the most intriguing things with TOM to me. Alot of info can be gleamed from them if you take them at face value.

Your thoughts? Other things that could be gleamed from them?
  #2  
Old 11-06-2010, 06:37 PM
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I was hoping the viewings were a possible future that can be altered, but that is simply because I hate the Seanchan, and I don't want the Aiel to end that way.

However I don't see how Rand will have time to deal with Seanchan as the LB is about to start. It would also appear from Rand's POV in the epilogue that he intends to announce the so-called "Peace of the Dragon" mentioned in the viewings at the meeting. He muses over making demands on the monarchs of the world in exchange for him to fight in the LB. I don't know what these demands are, but with the new Zen Rand persona, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he is suing for peace but will keep the Aiel out of it because of some debt he feels to them and a desire to preserve the remnant of a remnant he is to leave of them.
  #3  
Old 11-06-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HunterOTS View Post
I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he is suing for peace but will keep the Aiel out of it because of some debt he feels to them and a desire to preserve the remnant of a remnant he is to leave of them.

Perhaps this is what will meet his toh to them, *if* everything stays on its present course.

Aviendha will try to change it though.
  #4  
Old 11-10-2010, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay799 View Post
So, the first question...

Rand will really die and not return. The last viewing, the most recent being just 17 or so years after the last battle, and his alliance's have crumbled.

Your thoughts? Other things that could be gleamed from them?
If Aviendha's viewings are true then Rand most likely survives the Last Battle seeing as how Aviendha and Rand have only slept together the once that I recall and if she had gotten pregnant that time their children would be about two I think.
I feel that Rand may live a little longer after the they have won. Most likely to see his children be born.

This is assuming that Rand and Aviendha don't get together for one last fling before the Last Battle which seems somewhat unlikely.

I do think it's interesting that Rand seems to have the ability to sire multiples. Maybe it has something to do with the One Power.

I hope that if Elayne and Aviendha raise their children to understand the consequences of what could happen if the two sides of their family were to stop trusting each other.
  #5  
Old 11-10-2010, 01:27 AM
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I think that Aviendha triggered a resonance between the Wise One ring ter'angreal and the glass column ter'angreal that resulted in the columns selecting one possible future and drawing out a genealogy for it. So I do not believe it to be fixed, and even before "Veins of Gold" I doubt it was the most likely future.
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:31 AM
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THE FUTURE IS NOT SET, SARAH!
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:33 AM
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An interesting thing is that no fortelling or "viewing" of the future could ever fortell that the Shadow has actually won. When the Shadow wins, the pattern will most likely be destroyed, so there wouldn't be any fortellings of the future that could show that since there is no pattern to gain such a sight from.
Any prophecy/fortelling/whatever can't say who actually wins the very last battle, only what happens before it and what could happen afterwards if the Light wins.

I think this is very much like dreamviewings, possible future that can still be changed. Even though we havn't seen any dream turn out to not happen yet...

I think Aviendha needs to have a chat with Rand very soon about this Dragon Peace thing.
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2010, 04:35 AM
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My impression while reading this part is that it gives Avi clues of things not to do during and in the aftermath of the last battle. And the most important clue I see at the moment is that it gives an indication what may be the result of the fact that the caracarn will break the aiel. THEY MUST become somthing else or more than warriors or there cannot be peace after the last battle.

Maybe this can be connected to nicola's foretelling, The great battle done but the world not done with battle

And the beautiful part of this glimpse of the (possible) future gives us at TL extra stuff to theorize about Thanks Brandon/RJ
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:51 AM
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I see them as possibilities that could happen, but it's not set in stone. The interesting part of it all was that, aside from Rand, virtually none of the major characters were present or referenced. It's only 17 years, you'd think they would have considerable influence until their death...and they can't all die, can they?

Hopefully Avi grasps the lesson at hand: The aiel are going to change whether they want to or not. Be stubborn and stick to your traditions and old ways and slowly degrade to the filthy urchins we see in the first version or adapt to the way the world changes.
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2010, 11:33 AM
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There are so many seemingly illogical aspects to the near future she saw. The first is that by the very nature of Aviendha having children, this would seem to indicate she survived the Last Battle unless that battle is delayed my almost a year, which is unlikely. Given that, we have to assume that Aviendha died after the Last Battle, which is bizarre since Aviendha is a strong channeler and should have a lifespan of many hundreds of years.

The viewing also seems to indicate that Rand died at the Last Battle. This I think is much more disconcerting than anything else because it seems logically consistent to deduce from this vision that Rand must die at the Last Battle. The alternative is that there is more than one way to defeat the Dark One and Rand need not die depending on the method used. But is that really satisfying, from a reader's perspective, that there are multiple ways to defeat the Dark One? That Rand has only to find one of many answers? That he could go with Option A or B and they will both defeat the Dark One but one option won't kill him? Now that seems weird.
  #11  
Old 11-10-2010, 11:50 AM
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The vision probably shows what would have happened if Aviendha hadn't seen it. Now that she has seen it, things will turn out differently.
So, just as what Rand et al saw in the Portal Stone episode, this is an alternative life with a lesson.
  #12  
Old 11-11-2010, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
The vision probably shows what would have happened if Aviendha hadn't seen it. Now that she has seen it, things will turn out differently.
So, just as what Rand et al saw in the Portal Stone episode, this is an alternative life with a lesson.
I agree. The lesson reinforces what is supposed to happen, as indicated by prophecy:

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

The Aiel will have to follow the Way of the Leaf again, if they are to survive as a people.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:33 AM
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I agree. The lesson reinforces what is supposed to happen, as indicated by prophecy:

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

The Aiel will have to follow the Way of the Leaf again, if they are to survive as a people.
That's a bit of a stretch, finn. He slayed them with their history. Those that couldn't take it are dust. Those that could will remain. It's done, and i don't see anything concrete saying the Aiel MUST return to the Way of the Leaf.

Mort already said what i was going to about a guaranteed win of the Last Battle.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:41 AM
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Right, no prophecy is a guaranteed win. Min and Cadsuane explained this in tGS. Prophecies see the direction the Pattern is moving in. If the Dark One derails the whole Pattern then it won't matter where the tracks would have led if everything had stayed on course.

On of the vision-people complained that Rand had neglected the Aiel and that his neglect led them to their solitary war against the Empire. I'm guessing Avi will make it her business to make sure Rand doesn't neglect them in the upcoming iteration of the future.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:43 AM
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yup. and a nicely heavy-handed bit of foreshadowing about it too.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:43 AM
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That's a bit of a stretch, finn. He slayed them with their history. Those that couldn't take it are dust. Those that could will remain. It's done, and i don't see anything concrete saying the Aiel MUST return to the Way of the Leaf.
He broke them "as dried twigs" with their history. He hasn't slain them with the sword of peace yet. The Aiel have yet to know peace. A peace mentioned in conjunction with the leaf is very indicative.

Quote:
"One of the old prophecies says that if ever we fail the Aes Sedai again, they will slay us."
The Aiel say their toh will be met when they fight the last battle. The toh was incurred because they had failed the Aes Sedai who asked them to keep to the way of the leaf, even if all else failed. They will re-incur that toh if they continue to fight after the last battle is done with.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:57 AM
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which Aes Sedai do they have to fail to get slain? The ones that've been dead for 3500 years? The modern ones? The ones who server Rand, or the ones still in the Tower? What about the neutral ones still missing?
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:21 AM
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The ones who asked them to retain their identity as a people. They may be long dead but every Wise One and Clan Chief alive has spoken to them from the viewpoint of their own ancestors. And now Aviendha has seen that prophecy hold true from one possible future viewpoint of her own descendants.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:05 AM
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My ideas on why Aviendha saw the visions, and what she'll do about them:

Aviendha will travel to the Field of Merrilor and tell the Wise Ones gathered what she has seen. They will question her, but will eventually believe that she did see what she claims to have seen. They will then confront Rand either before Fortuona (with a ton of armies?) shows up on the Field, or during Rand and Fortuona's next confrontation. Rand will (unintentionally or not) use his Ligh-Ta'veren effect to butter Fortuona up, and then will either offer the sword to her himself, or will be asked by her to give it up. The negotiation which follows will end with Fortuona keeping the sword, and allowing Rand to use her armies. There may still be a Dragon's Peace, but it will be handled with a much different outcome that what we saw in the visions of the future. Thus, the remnant of Aiel can still be spared the horrible future we saw.

I decided not to monopolize this thread with my theory, so here's the link to it:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=4594

The theory explains why I think what I typed above.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay799 View Post
So, the first question...

Were the viewing she saw of the future destined to happen? No matter what?!?

I don't think Aviendha saw any viewings of the Future and never went throught he Crystal Columns ter'angreal twice.
I think everything she saw in her "second trip" was implanted 'post-hypnotic' suggestions from Nakomi's Svengali act at Aviendha's campfire.

That would make Nakomi either Lanfear/Cyndane or Greandal -- more likely the latter who is a practiced "mind-healer" who should be good (is) at implanting false memories.
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