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  #1  
Old 03-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Lightning Lightning is offline
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Default Will Nynaeve make it to Shayol Ghul???.....ToM SPOILER

I don't quite know how to ease into this so I'm just gonna say it...

I think Egwene has kidnapped/detained Nynaeve to use her as leverage against Rand.

My reasons...

1. Egwene knows that Nynaeve supports Rand's decision to break the seals from their conversation in T'A'R.

2. Nynaeve basically told Egwene that Rand has asked her to accompany him to SG and that she has promised to go and help him. (the AS testing).

3. Egwene knows how important Nynaeve's support and help is to Rand both as one of the most powerful female channelers and one of the only AS that Rand has any measure of trust for.

4. It goes without saying that at this stage if Rand wants/needs something Egwene will keep it from him. She is willing to use anything and everything at hand to control him and change his mind. And lets face it, she's not exactly shy when it comes to mistreating her friends.

5. Even though most of the world leaders have come to the Fields at Egwene's request they are far from under her control. Most of these leaders have come to hear things out and many have pledged to Rand and it is quite possible that it will take very little persuasion on Rand's part for them to support his decision.
Egwene knows that when the time comes to face Rand she will need every shred of support and credibility that she can get in order to influence the world leaders. She also knows Nynaeve well enough to know that Nynaeve will not sit back and watch the debate, and will argue for Rand. And that will look extremely bad in front of the world's leaders. If Egwene lacks the full support of every AS (at least in appearance) she will lose a lot of ground at the summit/meeting. Even one AS arguing for Rand can tip the scale in his favor.

6. I don't know if this is a reason or an evidence, but in the 'good soup' chapter we are privy to Siuan's thoughts that Nynaeve's loyalties are with Rand more than they are with Egwene or the WT. And she thinks that its good to get her away from him. And well, Siuan and Egwene tend to agree on things. Foreshadowing???

My evidence...

1. Nynaeve basically disappears after the T'A'R battle, which is probably just a few days before the meeting/summit at the fields.

2. There is no mention of Nynaeve in any respect at the Fields even when Perrin or Elayne show up. If I know anything about Nynaeve I know that had she been present at the Fields she would have bee lined for Perrin as soon as he showed up. But...

3. Nynaeve has promised Rand to go to SG with him, and I would imagine that since going back to the WT she has spent every possible moment preparing for that. There is 'NO WAY' that she would choose to sit back in the WT when she has promised him to come to the Fields (in Tear, when she told him that she has to go, right after healing madness) and from there go to SG with him.

4. Egwene's last pov is at the Fields and she basically runs through a list of her possible oppositions and unknown factions. But never once is she concerned about Nynaeve's position. She keeps thinking about Gawyn and the bond and stuff but never a concern for how Nynaeve could wreck things for her.

5. This isn't very concrete but something about Lan's last thoughts about their bond is off. He has already mentioned the change in the feeling of the bond and that he is sure it has switched to Nynaeve (pg. 640). Also the way he mentions the bond again is a bit suspect. First he says that the bond has been giving him strength, i.e its Nynaeve. And then he says that "the bond had changed. The emotions had changed."
Then it goes to a new paragraph and says that "he could 'still' feel Nynaeve." As if something had made him doubt that he should. Also the way he talks about their proximity is odd. "he could feel 'something distant'" as if she was farther from him than she had been in the past. Whereas if Nynaeve was at the Fields she would have been somewhat closer, not so far that he would only have a vague impression of her.

My fears...

I have this awful feeling that Egwene has probably forced Nynaeve to drink a whole bunch of Forkroot and stuffed her in a corner under guard. (If Egwene wants something she doesn't care what she does or to whom. If she wants Nynaeve out -and I believe that she does- then she will make sure that Nynaeve is OUT).

Meanwhile we know that the Seanchan are going to attack the tower at any point now. Well what if they do and they find and collar Nynaeve who has been incapacitated in some way and unable to defend herself. Say she gets taken as a damane will Rand wait around for her to get rescued? Or will he move on with his plans.

We already know that he is considering Aviendha as one to go with him, and we already know that Alivia's role is going to be crucial in the end, and he already trusts and depends on her based on Min's viewing. (Well old Rand did, I have no clue how new Rand feels about Alivia. So far she's been ignored). And now Moiraine is back and we know that she also has a crucial part to play. Will Rand really wait around for Nynaeve if he has other choices?

Please respond and tell me that I'm being completely paranoid. Crush me with overwhelming evidence that says Nynaeve won't spend the Last Battle in a damane kennel, or defending the Seanchan.
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:26 AM
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As much as I don't like it, it makes sense... only, Rand won't just pick a replacement and move on, he's going to try to save her and die in the process (hopefully successful!). Hmmm... if he does succeed, then Nyn will be able to find him in T'A'R and use that moggy weave to rip him back to their reality.

Though one other thing, against your idea, if Nyn managed to play meek and Egwene thinks she'll keep her promise, I don't see her forkrooting her "just in case"... Siuan might, though.
  #3  
Old 03-05-2011, 02:36 AM
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Nice job Lightning.

I like the post except for the Lan evidence. She felt "distant" through the bond because if you remember that's actually how bonds work.

Also, things had "changed" because well.. the person changed. Meaning Nynaeve now has the bond. It makes total sense.

As to the logic Egwene might have in keeping her. It's pretty sound.. I doubt it, but you make a good argument. Egwene's definitely arrogant enough to go through with it, however, I think she may try to use Nynaeve or trick her into siding with her through some way or another. Imprisoning her wouldn't ultimately do any good.
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2011, 05:41 AM
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Wonderful speculation there, Lightning. It is backed up with enough evidence to make it seem plausible. I don't think Egwene will stoop this low, but it is definately not impossible.
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2011, 07:30 AM
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It's nicely written argument.

However, there are many sisters out there that did not respond to the summons of Elaida nor allied with the Rebels.

Never mind that the Tower is united now, there are a great many AS floating about that Egwene has no direct control over.

The most important being Cadsuane and Moiraine.

If either of those speaks in favour of Rand's plan how much weight will their words be given?
  #6  
Old 03-05-2011, 10:07 AM
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Nice theory. I don't agree, though. Seems too mean and cold-hearted even for Egwene.

Besides, surely Egwene must realise that if she tries to use Nynaeve as a hostage/leverage, Rand will get mad and will be much less likely to do what she wants at Merrilor. She can't even lie now and Rand has enough experience with oath-bound Aes Sedai not to be fooled by some roundabout excuse when he asks "Where's Nynaeve?".

How is it going to look to the other Aes Sedai if Nynaeve is arrested for something she may do in the future? Even Elaida didn't go this far. It also risks alienating the only monarch Egwene can count on as an ally for now - Elayne.

I think Egwene is for now convinced she'd bullied Nynaeve enough and she wont cause problems at Merrilor. She knows Nynaeve wants to go with Rand to Shayol Ghul, but that has to happen at some point no matter if the seals are broken now by Rand.
  #7  
Old 03-05-2011, 12:16 PM
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I don't think Nyn carries enough weight politically to be a speaker at the meeting. If I were Eg, I would just tell her to "know your roll & shut your hole......But that's just me....
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
I don't think Egwene would do that, and it'd make her look like a weak Amyrlin who can't even keep her friends in line without resorting to the same tactics as Elaida.

Even if Nynaeve had been shielded or given forkroot, it's possible she still has the ter'angreal jewelry set, in which case all she'd need to do is shout "BEHIND YOU! A THREE-HEADED MONKEY!" to her guards and escape through a gateway using the Well. Cadsuane's Well holds enough of saidar to open a small gateway, and hers is smaller than Nynaeve's.

I think it's more likely that Nynaeve's gone off to Bashere/Logain/whoever Rand is sending to Lan to inform them of his location and maybe assist with a few gateways.
At this point, I'm not sure what I would put past Egwene. She's even luring in the Wise Ones to come under White Tower rule, the very same ones in fac, that thought her honorale and wouldn't try to do that to them. Hell, I think she may even be contemplating of gentling Rand as a backup plan (not saying she'll succeed, but that she'll try).
  #9  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:09 PM
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A lot of what you guys say makes sense but I think there is a way around all of them. Egwene has become enough of a politician (especially with Siuan's guidance) to manuver these difficulties.
She can capture and hold Nynaeve in secret so only a few sisters would know and then just tell Rand that Nynaeve is meeting her obligations to the WT and couldn't come.
Also that was a good point about the well. I've been wondering if a shielded person can channel through a well. But even if they can would Nynaeve go around the tower wearing it? I would think that Egwene would just jump her without warning.
As for political weight, isn't being an AS enough in and of itself? Also if the Borderland Lords are there wouldn't that make a difference?
Anyway I think the key here might be the measure of Egwene's desperation.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:23 PM
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This might quite possibly be the most ridiculous theory I have ever read on Theoryland. And that is saying something.

ETA: No offense. Just saying. If you'll notice, even some regular Egwene-bashers have noted that it's ridiculous. Will Egwene try unbrainwash Nynaeve? Probably. She noted that Nynaeve has been caught up in Rand's ta'verenness and she felt it was her duty to provide a balance to that. It may even be that she is right, and letting the lord of chaos rule without opposition might not be the greatest idea, even now. Moridin's influence has not gone away entirely, and the fact that it appears to have gone away makes it even more dangerous. But the idea that Egwene has 'kidnapped' Nynaeve and has kept her hostage as a bargaining chip is ridiculous.
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Last edited by Terez; 03-05-2011 at 04:42 PM.
  #11  
Old 03-05-2011, 10:28 PM
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I come back after a few months and I see that Terez is still in good form for using hyperbolic attacks on stuff she does not like. I do like the smell of Terez napalm in the morning.

I do not find the theory stupid, just somewhat uhlikely. It is certainly true that Mr Sanderson did not show Nynaeve in any latter part of the book.

Most of the arguments center around what people believe Eqwene is capable of doing in her position as head of the WT. I too am not certain that even Egwene could does such a thing to her old wisdom and a woman who is actually stronger than she in the OP.

In these forums, this is a weak argument and one can argue it in many ways on the issue.

Rand wants/needs Nyanaeve to assist him in using Callandor. Therefore, Nynaeve has to be at Shayol Ghul. this will happen irrespective of any stupid thing Eqwene al'Vere may choose to do in her greater blindness compared to Rand. Her instant objection to what Rand intends to do is symbolic of what all of the Amyrlins have done in their dealings with the Dragon Reborn. Stupidity or foolishness seems to have a momentum all its own.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
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This might quite possibly be the most ridiculous theory I have ever read on Theoryland. And that is saying something.
More than my "Mat will marry Moghedien" theory? Admittedly, that one was not serious, but on the other hand: not even Frenzy was willing to try to defend it. Even though I did have a lot of quotes from the books to support it.

I don't think Egwene will do this, not because she herself would be too good to stoop this low, but because she is wily enough to see that she can't get enough AS to support her in it.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:00 AM
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Fistly I am not 100% sure that Egwene would do this to someone as close to her as Nynaeve but even if she was willing does she have the means?

The WT is very very fragile after its civil war and Elaida running roughtshod over everyone. Egwene has to step very carefully to keep the various factions together and allow time for the wounds to heal.

That means not just ignoring the law book when its convenient. If she simply orders Nynaeve to be arrested or detained how many sisters will start to thinkt that she might not do the same to them if they step out of line or have an independant thought. Next think she is seen as Elaida version 2.0
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:01 AM
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Is this the new Egwene Bashing Thread now...?
It seems everytime one of those threads die down a new one comes along !!

And No, i dont think Egwene will forkroot Nynaeve. Thats just ridiculous
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
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There is no doubt the young Amylyn's loyalty to the Lord Dragon is questionable. There are stories that the night before she was appointed as a figurehead of the White Tower, she was seen consorting with a Black Sister.

And then proceeded to execute those Aes Sedai who were likely the most loyal to the Lord Dragon.

But to the matter at hand, there is even less doubt, from the evidence in the opening post, that this young Wisdom from the Lord Dragon's village has been turned, and is now a Black Sister. No doubt the Wisdom was betrayed at the Black Tower to Logain, who used a circle of 13 to turn her.

Thus the change, and the distant feeling, and her flight. She would likely fear the Lord Dragon would know she is a Friend of the - I mean, a Darkfriend - just by looking at her. Which is of course ridiculous, but who can say what commoners from flyspeck villages will believe?

Should the Lord Dragon encounter any of them - Wisdom, Logain, Malkieri lord - he should have them executed immediately.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:34 PM
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...kay
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weiramon View Post
There is no doubt the young Amylyn's loyalty to the Lord Dragon is questionable. There are stories that the night before she was appointed as a figurehead of the White Tower, she was seen consorting with a Black Sister.

And then proceeded to execute those Aes Sedai who were likely the most loyal to the Lord Dragon.

But to the matter at hand, there is even less doubt, from the evidence in the opening post, that this young Wisdom from the Lord Dragon's village has been turned, and is now a Black Sister. No doubt the Wisdom was betrayed at the Black Tower to Logain, who used a circle of 13 to turn her.

Thus the change, and the distant feeling, and her flight. She would likely fear the Lord Dragon would know she is a Friend of the - I mean, a Darkfriend - just by looking at her. Which is of course ridiculous, but who can say what commoners from flyspeck villages will believe?

Should the Lord Dragon encounter any of them - Wisdom, Logain, Malkieri lord - he should have them executed immediately.
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:13 PM
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The preferred term is "soiled oneself", and while High Lords can of course outpace any little girl, they do not "run away".




They simply advance in another direction.
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:57 PM
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Wow, I am amazed that Terez has not napalmed you back to the first book in the series. Why in the world do you think that Logain is a DF? You have zero evidence that Logain could get the requisite number of Shadowmen and turned AS to assist in such an event.

Oh well, it must be fun to tweak the board from time to time.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:24 PM
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Alethinos, Alethinos, Alethinos, Alethinos

Burn my eyes, but Logain set himself up as a false dragon. He worked with the Black Ajah who warned him of Aes Sedai who would capture him. He has undermined Lord Taim and divided the Black Tower. And the evidence is clear that one of the men in his company has been turned by a circle of thirteen.

I wager that the Lord Dragon himself has given thought to throttling bloody Logain Ablar with his own hands.
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