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  #1  
Old 03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
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Default Rand and the aiel

Or to put it a little differently: Is LTT really there?

Let me explain. I've been wondering what LTT would do about the aiel when/if he returned. From the musing of the forsaken and the glimpses wi got in TSR, the aiel have deviated pretty far from their original purpose. And in the aol, the aiel or at least the daishan aiel, followed the Dragon and only the Dragon. So they were his responsibility.

Now in this age, we've not seen any reaction from LT or Rand to the change in the aiel. Rand has thought of Janduin and even considered using the aiel as weapons, but he has never even hinted at any thoughts about their former pacifist role. And he was their patron. Why?

If Rand has fully integrated with LT and has all of his memories, then he'll be intimately familiar with how much the aiel have changed. Yet he has said and done nothing so far.

Besides, I also thought Rand would do some teaching if he has access to all of LTT's memories. He did hint Cadsuane that he realized the knowledge between the forsaken and the present AS (inc ashaman) was a problem, yet said nothing regarding training. Not even identifying a few useful terangreal. Again why?

So am left wondering if Rand really has access to all those memories. Is he really LT?
  #2  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:19 PM
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A couple things.

1. Rand went through the crystal forest thing and learned about the Aiel's history there, so he knew even before he became integrated with LTT's memories. He was plenty surprised then. Go back and read The Shadow Rising.

2. Regarding the ter'angreal, there was a little thing called The Breaking, in which the entire world was transformed, where mountains that were below the seas were brought up and ones that were on land were cast into the sea. So yeah, even if he knew of a stache from the AOL, who knows where it would be 3000 years later?

3. Time. He probably has not had enough time to teach much, or if he has, it's been off screen, because we do kind of skip a month or so of his life.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:07 PM
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The Aiel did not only follow the Dragon. They served all Aes Sedai. One of the Aiel from very shortly after the Breaking protested that when people were tormenting them.
  #4  
Old 03-08-2011, 06:33 PM
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To be fair, Rand didn't really realize he was LLT until the end of TGS and we haven't seen much of Rand in TOM because according to BS he didn't want to give too much away until AMOL.
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  #5  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
A couple things.

1. Rand went through the crystal forest thing and learned about the Aiel's history there, so he knew even before he became integrated with LTT's memories. He was plenty surprised then. Go back and read The Shadow Rising.
Surprised as any bystander would be but certainly not shocked the way you'd expect from someone who was a patron to the cause of the aiel. Even Taim has been using the phrase "so called aiel" and he's supposedly a third ager.


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Originally Posted by RandalFain View Post
2. Regarding the ter'angreal, there was a little thing called The Breaking, in which the entire world was transformed, where mountains that were below the seas were brought up and ones that were on land were cast into the sea. So yeah, even if he knew of a stache from the AOL, who knows where it would be 3000 years later?
What do you mean? In any case, he should know more about (a)Callandor (b) Cadsuane and Nyn's items but he didn't say or teach the ashaman or AS with these items he has access to. He hasn't taught Dreaming or Dreamwalking.


Imagine anyone in our time suddenly appearing in say, 9th cent bc. You'll have plenty to teach no matter how little you might think you know. And it would cut across several fields : biology, physics, agriculture, history et al


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3. Time. He probably has not had enough time to teach much, or if he has, it's been off screen, because we do kind of skip a month or so of his life.

Maybe.

But his first contact with the aiel after "integration" was an opportunity he seems to have missed.
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  #6  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:44 AM
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Surprised as any bystander would be but certainly not shocked the way you'd expect from someone who was a patron to the cause of the aiel.
Rand was shocked by what he experienced through his ancestors, but LTT was not Aiel and never experienced being Aiel.

I think I'll take "the experience of being several different Aiel" over "being served by Aiel" for understanding the Aiel.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:18 AM
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Rand was shocked by what he experienced through his ancestors, but LTT was not Aiel and never experienced being Aiel.

I think I'll take "the experience of being several different Aiel" over "being served by Aiel" for understanding the Aiel.

We can assume that of course, but you'll also note that LT reacted to DFs and forsaken (especially Lanfear?) while he was just a "mad voice" in Rand's head. And he wanted to destroy the seals. But not even a whimper concerning the aiel. Even if LT himself felt the cause of peace was lost, we might have at least gotten some reaction where he decides to abandon the cause.

Indifference on this scale needs some explanation don't you think?
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:20 AM
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We can assume that of course, but you'll also note that LT reacted to DFs and forsaken (especially Lanfear?) while he was just a "mad voice" in Rand's head. And he wanted to destroy the seals. But not even a whimper concerning the aiel. Even if LT himself felt the cause of peace was lost, we might have at least gotten some reaction where he decides to abandon the cause.

Indifference on this scale needs some explanation don't you think?
The personality of Lews Therin in Rand's head was a construct based partly on Rand's insanity and partly on things half-remembered from a previous life, so it doesn't necessarily follow purely logical, objective lines of thought. LT's memories weren't dumped on Rand en masse, but as and when he needed to remember things (e.g. The Mask of Mirrors to conceal Egwene from the Aes Sedai, or how to break the shield when he was in the box) or in times of stress like when he was surrounded by male channellers, whom Rand didn't trust anyway on one level or another. His conscious mind - the Rand personality - had accepted the change in the Aiel, so his sub-conscious/insane mind was dealing wth other things.

By the time Rand has full access to those coherent memories, he has already faced the change in the Aiel in a rational way. Even if super-Rand is grieved by what they have become, he may not see it as a particularly pressing issue. More than that, even if he is concerned by it he might see it as ultimately none of his business: he's revealed the truth to them and now it is up to them as a people to make their own choices, it's not up to him to make decisions for them.
  #9  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
What do you mean? In any case, he should know more about (a)Callandor (b) Cadsuane and Nyn's items but he didn't say or teach the ashaman or AS with these items he has access to. He hasn't taught Dreaming or Dreamwalking.
Callandor was made DURING*the breaking, and even if it wasn't, making sa'angreal may not have been one of Lews Therin's Talents. He did comment on the paralis-nets, but only two people in the world seem to have them, and appear to be using them just fine on top of that. And again, Dreaming and Dreamwalking are clearly NOT two of Lews Therin's/Rand's Talents.

And that's just ignoring the fact that he might have explained something about those things anyway while off-screen.
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:00 PM
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. LT's memories weren't dumped on Rand en masse, but as and when he needed to remember things .


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Originally Posted by ChubbyAiel View Post
Even if super-Rand is grieved by what they have become, he may not see it as a particularly pressing issue. More than that, even if he is concerned by it he might see it as ultimately none of his business: he's revealed the truth to them and now it is up to them as a people to make their own choices,
You seem to have missed what I'm saying. If he has rationalized it, we missed it, and if he hasn't rationalized as you claim, then its very odd indeed. But Rand/LT is really in no position to be indifferent. Would you accept a Congressman being indifferent about constituency issues? Much less a presidential figure or a Lord. Its called being irresponsible, and it seems rather out of place for the new Rand.

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Callandor was made DURING*the breaking,
No it wasn't.
  #11  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:22 AM
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I have been of the personal opinion that the destruction of the Aiel would be twofold. One they will take heavy losses in the last battle. Two, they would return to the Way of the Leaf which would destroy their present way of life.

Rand is not going to waste a very valuable asset in the Aiel by not using them to the full in his need to close the Bore. This is one of the primary points of the series if I am not mistaken. Their present state as the premier group of warriors on the planet will not be wasted by the Dragon Reborn. Period. This isb regardless of his ancestral memories from the pillars of Rhuidean or his memories from his life as LTT.
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:13 AM
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LTT may have been quite fond of the Aiel pacifism of his day. But we should ask ourselves: did Aiel children in the AOL have to follow the Way of the Leaf for all their life even if they did not want to, or could they opt out? If the latter, then LTT could simply take the historically correct approach that all current Aiel are descendants of those who opted out.
He might have then have been sad about the demise of the Jenn Aiel, but that happened either long after or long before his time, so it's not something he needs to worry about right now.
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:22 AM
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You seem to have missed what I'm saying. If he has rationalized it, we missed it, and if he hasn't rationalized as you claim, then its very odd indeed.
I'm not claiming that he hasn't rationalised it at all. I'm saying that Rand's original conciousness may have already dealt with it, as he saw their history and accepted what they had become. Then when LTT's memories come upon him in full, he has already dealt with it on one level, while his new super-consciousness could very well build on that acceptance to think, "Well, it's up to them to live how they wish." How is that not rationalising it?

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But Rand/LT is really in no position to be indifferent. Would you accept a Congressman being indifferent about constituency issues? Much less a presidential figure or a Lord. Its called being irresponsible, and it seems rather out of place for the new Rand.
Why is he not in a position to be indifferent? He cares about the Aiel because of the sacrifices they've made for them, but it is not up to him to tell them how to live their lives. I'm English so I don't have a Congressman, but I know what you mean. My answer to your analogy would be that this issue with the Aiel is not a constituency issue, it's about personal choice albeit for an entire ethnic group. The choice, even for that many people, is made on a personal level. It's up to representatives of the people to campaign and vote for legislation and to stand up for their interests, not to tell them they should be living their lives as if it were 3,000 years ago and passing judgement on their ancestors' and their own rejection of passivism.

That's my take on it, so back to your original point: if it has happened in such a way that "we've missed it", I think we can draw our own conclusions. If every single thing like this had to be made explicit in the books, we'd be back to the snail pace of some of the weaker books and the series would never get finished. For me, this issue is not a big deal because Rand had dealt with it earlier in the books and LTT's memories/personality would change nothing.
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:46 AM
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You seem to have missed what I'm saying. If he has rationalized it, we missed it, and if he hasn't rationalized as you claim, then its very odd indeed. But Rand/LT is really in no position to be indifferent. Would you accept a Congressman being indifferent about constituency issues? Much less a presidential figure or a Lord. Its called being irresponsible, and it seems rather out of place for the new Rand.
Would you expect a Congressman who happened to get memories from a past life to become an ardent supporter of the British monarchy and a strong opponent of the idea that the USA was now an independent country?
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 4Alethinos View Post
Rand is not going to waste a very valuable asset in the Aiel by not using them to the full in his need to close the Bore. This is one of the primary points of the series if I am not mistaken. Their present state as the premier group of warriors on the planet will not be wasted by the Dragon Reborn. Period. This isb regardless of his ancestral memories from the pillars of Rhuidean or his memories from his life as LTT.

You bring up a very important issue: what was the importance in the war of power? And what will be the value of such pacific-ism/symbolism now? We've seen that Perrin's decision of hammer vs axe is important as well as Matt's choice to build Dragons. Rand has chosen not to be a tool of the shadow, but he may still be serving the shadow's ends in this.

Which is why I find it odd that such an important decision was left out. If Rand has access to all of LT's memories, then I'd have thought he would want to do something for them (the descendant of the Jenn) rather than just cutting them loose and leave them drifting in the currents.

Furthermore, LT seems to have been something of a philosopher or a religious type. Its really really difficult to see him abandon what the way of the leaf stood for.

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Originally Posted by Gonzo
Would you expect a Congressman who happened to get memories from a past life to become an ardent supporter of the British monarchy and a strong opponent of the idea that the USA was now an independent country?
Actually, we're discussing whether irresponsible behaviour by a congressman would be ok with us or not rather than if it would be ok for the congressman. I've addressed this by saying that even if LT rationalized the situation of the aiel, we ought to have still seen some reaction.

Or maybe a trolloc ate the page?

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Originally Posted by ChubbyAiel
It's up to representatives of the people to campaign and vote for legislation
Exactly. He's not campaigning or advocating. Apparently, he has no opinion on the matter. And you support him
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:48 AM
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I've addressed this by saying that even if LT rationalized the situation of the aiel, we ought to have still seen some reaction.
As I said, I think we can come to our own conclusion on this, and if everything needs to happen on screen to keep you happy... I think you'd need another ten books to keep you satisfied.

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Exactly. He's not campaigning or advocating. Apparently, he has no opinion on the matter. And you support him
OK. So there's another reason your analogy falls down: the Car'a'carn is a war leader not a congressman. He's leading the Aiel to the Last Battle and helping them fulfil their destiny. Even less reason for him to fret about what their great-great-great-(etc)-grandparents were, and even less reason to wonder about their personal choices now they are in full possession of the facts of their history.

My three main points against your argument are:
  • Rand and LTT are no longer to be considered separate personalities/memories in any sense. Super-Rand combines both (and other lives), and anything that LTT's memories add wouldn't be too different from what Rand already knew, so wouldn't upset his conscious mind too much.
  • Even if his concern for the Aiel is increased slightly by his new-found access to these memories, it is not his place in his role as Car'a'carn to try to do anything about it. He's got very pressing concerns, and the Aiel (and their forebears for generations and generations) have made their own decisions.
  • Rand therefore shouldn't have much more concern than he had pre-epiphany, neither can he do anything about. Why therefore, with limited space within each book should Sanderson slow the pace to explain something to which we can apply our own imagination and logic?
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:41 AM
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OK. So there's another reason your analogy falls down: the Car'a'carn is a war leader

That's your definition of Rand? A war monger?

The Car'a'carn is chief of chief and leader of the aiel, period. If he believes being aiel means being pacifist, then anyone with different idea of who an aiel is will face serious problems i.e. the bleakness.


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As I said, I think we can come to our own conclusion on this, and if everything needs to happen on screen to keep you happy... I think you'd need another ten books to keep you satisfied.


So what would you like then? More of Elayne's bath scenes? You refuse to address issues raised here and you tempt me to think you're just arguing for the fun (or otherwise) of it.

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Rand and LTT are no longer to be considered separate personalities/memories
If you read my posts rather than skimming, you'll realize my argument has nothing to do with the construct theory. And you harp about it so much I think you should know I'm not interested in debating it in the least. Sorry.


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He's got very pressing concerns, and the Aiel (and their forebears for generations and generations) have made their own decisions.
Its his decision we're actually talking about here you know. If he has made the decision that the well being of the aiel is none of his business as you claim, we should know.
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:10 AM
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That's your definition of Rand? A war monger?

The Car'a'carn is chief of chief and leader of the aiel, period. If he believes being aiel means being pacifist, then anyone with different idea of who an aiel is will face serious problems i.e. the bleakness.
There is a big difference between "War Leader" and "War Monger" -- Rand is the former, he is NOT the latter.

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Rand stopped Adelin with a hand on her bare arm; others who noticed stopped as well, so he spoke to them all. "If you will not go when I tell you to, what will you do if I have to use you in battle?" He did not intend to if he could help it; he knew they were fierce warriors, but he had been raised to believe it was a man's place to die if necessary before a woman had to. Logic might say it was foolish, especially with women like this, but that was how he felt. He knew better than to tell them that, however. "Will you think it a joke, or decide to go in your own good time?"

They looked at him with the consternation of those listening to someone who had revealed his ignorance of the simplest facts. "In the dance of spears," Adelin told him, "we will go as you direct, but this is not the dance. Besides, you did not tell us to go."

"Even the Car'a'carn is not a wetlander king," a gray-haired Maiden added. Sinewy and hard despite her age, she wore only a short shift and her shoufa. He was getting tired of that phrase.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:16 AM
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That's your definition of Rand? A war monger?

The Car'a'carn is chief of chief and leader of the aiel, period.
Weird Harold has blown you out of the water with his post, so I won't add anything more.

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So what would you like then? More of Elayne's bath scenes? You refuse to address issues raised here and you tempt me to think you're just arguing for the fun (or otherwise) of it.
I would definitely not like more of that! That sort of scene was thoroughly unnecessary, as is the sort of elucidation you expect. I want the action and the pace of the last couple of books, which for me leaves no room for something I can work out for myself and which isn't intrinsic to the story.

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If you read my posts rather than skimming, you'll realize my argument has nothing to do with the construct theory. And you harp about it so much I think you should know I'm not interested in debating it in the least. Sorry.
I'm not arguing about this theory for its own sake but because it is relevant. Understanding that Rand/LTT's current combined super-Rand status is a continuation of Rand's previous personality, which was already aware of the history of the Aiel, is central to how I understand why super-Rand would not suddenly be obsessed with the Aiel and passivism. How Rand thinks and how the memories from his previous lives sit beside his own experiences in this incarnation is relevant. I'm not going off on a tangent - I'm using a supporting argument.

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Its his decision we're actually talking about here you know. If he has made the decision that the well being of the aiel is none of his business as you claim, we should know.
I know this is your point. I've told you why I don't think it's necessary from the character's point of view (Rand has already dealt with it half a dozen books ago, and with his hands full saving Creation he probably doesn't have time to revisit issues he's dealt with) and from the author's point of view (he's got a lot to squeeze into what remains of the series, so why waste space and slow the narrative?). You don't find that a convincing argument, I do. We'll just have to agree to disagree on why it doesn't appear in print.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:34 PM
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Weird Harold has blown you out of the water with his post, so I won't add anything more.
Totally off topic. WH simply reinforced the fact that Rand is a leader and not a war monger which is what your posts paint him as. I'll return to this.

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I want the action and the pace of the last couple of books, which for me leaves no room for something I can work out for myself and which isn't intrinsic to the story.

Last books? What pace are you talking about? Are you posting just for the sake of it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyAiel View Post
I know this is your point. I've told you why I don't think it's necessary from the character's point of view (Rand has already dealt with it half a dozen books ago, and with his hands full saving Creation he probably doesn't have time to revisit issues he's dealt with) and from the author's point of view (he's got a lot to squeeze into what remains of the series, so why waste space and slow the narrative?). .

So you know the author's pov? So uncool.

The issue at hand is the future of the aiel. And Rand, as leader, can help shape that future. Or rather LT can. It was Rand's choice to use the aiel as a weapon directed towards TG while at the same time exposing them to the bleakness.

However, Rand has changed after Dragonmmount. But we've not seen any change in this respect, none at all. You argue that the decision he made several books ago should remain the same now that he is a different and better leader but you fail to make a case for why. That would make debating with you to be like arguing with myself or a brick wall. Not pleasant.

To make the issues clearer, I'll draw the picture for you. The daishan aiel were dedicated to service and nonaggression. They were honoured in the aol. Because of what they stand for. But now they are practically opposite to these ideals. The ideals that once gave them the right to be called aiel. Hence the bleakness.

Now they have a leader - Rand, who hasn't said or done anything to help them find their identity or sense of self. Ironically the daishan aiel followed the Dragon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR
You are a Child of the Dragon, are you not?"
Jonai winced. That name had caused trouble, no less for not being true. But how many citizens now believed the Da'shain Aiel had once served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai?
RJ has dedicated a lot of effort to this. So has BS with the avi scenes. Claiming it is unimportant is clearly an attempt to rile me, a very unsubtle one at that. The facts are there. In LT's age, the aiel were considered his children! Considering his response to killing Ilyena, pne would expect a strong response from him to the situation of the aiel. If its completely absent, then there has to be a plot related reason for it - such as the possibility that Rand and LT are not as fully integrated (or whatever) as we might believe.
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May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
 


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