art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Archived: General Wheel of Time Discussion - 05/2008 - 03/2012
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2011, 08:39 AM
New Futurist Man's Avatar
New Futurist Man New Futurist Man is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 103
New Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really nice
Default The Halo of Blue and Gold

Quote:
[Min's POV] "The halo of greatness, blue and gold, flickered fitfully around Logain's head,.."
chp. 26, Sallie Daera, The Fires of Heaven
The colours described above are evidently the same colours Logain chose for his sigil: three golden crowns on a field of blue. The mystery is whether these colours are in anyway connected with Logain's coming glory...

The most likely scenarios for Logain to obtain "greatness" are as follows:
1. Up to now the Dragon has shouldered about 90%+ of the workload when it comes to fighting Forsaken. I think only Egwene and Moraine have leant a hand in this department. Its possible Logain will find himself matched against a Forsaken, thus go down in history as the man who stood against and defeated an Age of Legend channeler. Its well past time the Dragon got some help against the Forsaken.

2. The most obvious opportunity for glory is the taking down of Taim and his cronies. And although thats a mammoth task, would it really win him the adulation of the peoples of the Westlands? Especially as were False Dragon's go: Logain could easily be said to have trumped Taim on those stakes! So any glee by people at the one defeating the other doesn't seem likely when they're equally feared!

3. Leading the Asha'man against the Dreadlords when the fighting starts for real. This seems ample opportunity for greatness. Logain's prowess will be witnessed be the many thousands of soldiers fighting alongside the Asha'man - the fear they once held for men who can channel will be sure to turn to respect - if not awe - when they experience firsthand what the Asha'man are capable of against the hordes of Shadowspawn.

4. Another candidate is Logain's accompanying the Dragon to Shayol Ghul. This I'm not sure about. The Dragon has stated on numerous occasions that he declared the amnesty for male channelers in order to create the Asha'man, a body of men who's purpose was to shed their blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul fighting whatever presented itself there. But does he still believe this? I would suggest not. Primarily because the Westland armies would be next to useless if they went into combat against Dreadlord-led Shadow armies without channelers of their own. Its 100% certain some Asha'man will accompany the Dragon to Shayol Ghul: Narishma, Flinn and Naeff are obvious candidates, along with Grady and Neald etc. Logain going to Shayol Ghul just seems a waste of the man's talents. He's best deployed on the frontlines, let loose against the Dreadlords....

5. Then theirs the Seanchan. At this point in the books, the options for greatness must relate to the coming war. But not necessarily with the Shadow, as the not inconsiderable presence of the Seanchan still looms over the Westlands. The likelihood of Logain, as a male Channeller, ever finding any common ground with the Seanchan remains zilch. So irregardless of whether you think the so-called 'Dragon's Peace' will come into effect - some things are unalterable, and one of those is the Seanchan unease with men who can channel. (Though 'unease' seems a gross understatement.) So, no matter victory in the Last Battle, their remains the matter of the Seanchan and their enslavement of channelers. With the decimation of the White Tower by the Damane, the Aes Sedai have pretty much proved their ineffectuality against Damane. When - I say when not if - the Seanchan begin to encroach upon nations not currently under their control, the Asha'man will obviously be at the forefront of the fighting, and led by Logain.

6. Perhaps the "greatness" Logain achieves is intimately connected with the rise of Ghealdan? The wording of Min's viewing is tantalizing. Are we to take the halo of greatness as inextricable from 'blue and gold'? If yes, then possibly this viewing prophecies the rise of Ghealdan!?! Or if not Ghealdan as a whole, then potentially Logain's import within this nation. The geopolitics of Ghealdan and its near-neighbours certainly pays into this theory: the real power in Amadicia has been the White Cloaks for generations now, however they were soundly beaten by the Seanchan and can't really be considered a force anymore in a land where armies led by channelers has come to be the norm; Altara, on the other hand, is ruled from Ebou Dar by the Seanchan, and putting to one side the Dragon's observation regarding the quality of Seanchan rule, they remain bitter opponents of anyone who can channel, not least men, and, lest we forget, have come to the Westlands to conquer - not to live in peace. Ghealdan, with its monarch, Alliandre, newly schooled in the arts of governance by Berelain and Faile, could prove a likely successor state and come to encompass what is currently Altara and Amadicia, especially with someone of the calibre of Logain as one of its lords, and, potentially, future general.

Conclusion: The thing is, it doesn't appear the Age of Legends had any kings or queens, nor any other forms of secular governance other than the Aes Sedai. And as the victory of the Light in the Last Battle would appear to hearken the coming of a "new" Age of Legends, its possible the days of cut-throat politics - a world that's long been encouraged and exploited by what passes for Aes Sedai in this Age - may have had its day. Meaning if Logain was going to acquire greatness, perhaps it will have nothing to do with battles or lordships. Unlikely, but possible.

Victory for the Light in the Last Battle, will mean Logain can turn his hand to developing his skill in the Power. Presuming the Dragon returns from Shayol Ghul, the Asha'man can finally reap the benefit of the Dragon's rich knowledge of Age of Legend weaves. Will their be a place for kingships, queenships and the politics that accompanies them in a world like this?
__________________
"Hypotheses are nets: only he who casts will catch." - Novalis

Last edited by New Futurist Man; 04-05-2011 at 08:44 AM.
  #2  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:37 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

I would have thought some combination of all of the above, but the most likely to me seems to be the sorting out of the problems at the Black Tower and eventual running of it (or whatever male channeler group eventually emerges) as M'hael. This would also fulfil the prophecy of stepping over Rand's corpse; Rand is, at least in theory, the true M'hael and leader of the Asha'man (wasn't the title originally applied to him, or am I misremembering?) but Logain claiming the title, and eventual power, of M'Hael whilst Rand is dead or gone would fulfil that prophecy.
  #3  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:58 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Logain could go one better, and eventually become the official leader of all channelers, whether male, female or hermaphrodite*.

* Assuming those can figure out what they're channeling. RJ was not willing to think about that question.
  #4  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:02 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

I suggested a while back that it might have something to do with Tarwin's Gap. Rand is probably going to die some time during the Black Tower, at which point Logain would take the Asha'man to rescue Lan and Co. Lots of available glory there.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #5  
Old 04-05-2011, 12:07 PM
LewsTherin10 LewsTherin10 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 24
LewsTherin10 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
This would also fulfil the prophecy of stepping over Rand's corpse;
Which prophecy is this? I don't remember it.
  #6  
Old 04-05-2011, 12:19 PM
New Futurist Man's Avatar
New Futurist Man New Futurist Man is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 103
New Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really nice
Default

Quote:
LewsTherin10: "Which prophecy is this? I don't remember it."
Not a prophecy exactly, it in was one of Egwene's foretelling dreams.
__________________
"Hypotheses are nets: only he who casts will catch." - Novalis
  #7  
Old 04-05-2011, 01:12 PM
nameless nameless is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,254
nameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant future
Default

If we assume someone is going to rescue Lan at Tarwin's Gap, then Logain is probably the best choice for it. I've always imagined the Gap as sort of a canyon, and Logain knows the weave for Deathgates, which would be very effective at clearing out a narrow field.

Does anyone have a copy of EotW on hand who could maybe post the actual description of Tarwin's Gap?
  #8  
Old 04-05-2011, 02:43 PM
Lightning Lightning is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 86
Lightning is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Futurist Man View Post


1. Up to now the Dragon has shouldered about 90%+ of the workload when it comes to fighting Forsaken. I think only Egwene and Moraine have leant a hand in this department.
Sorry to be nit-picking, but Nynaeve helped with Rahvin (Rand was turning into a beast and losing his ability to channel when Nynaeve engulfed Rahvin in flames and marked his place for Rand), and kept Mogedien off his back, and helped capture Semirhag. It's of course not clear exactly who captured her but the six channelers there all get partial credit.

Moving on...

I believe a good part of the next book will be dedicated to the Seanchan and the Black Tower. From the events of CoT I would say that Mat has been set up to deal with the Seanchan. There is a lot there that could be viewed as foreshadowing, the series of skirmishes, Tuon's obsession with their crossbows, Musange seeing their fighting style first hand, Aludra's grudge and the Dragons... It all kind of makes sense. Although I am still hoping that Mat would be able to just change their minds somehow. Here is hoping Ta'veren can defy anything.

The Black Tower however will need a male channaler to deal with it, which leaves Rand and Logain as the only two with enough distinction to go up against Taim. Rand seems kind of busy at the moment so this could be the chance for Logain to step in and earn some glory. Or may be they both go up against Taim (at this point they would need to) and Logain possibly saves Rand, or some other twist. Really the door is wide open here. All we know of whats coming at the black tower is that 'it will be rent in fire and blood and sisters will walk its grounds'. That leaves a lot of room to work with.

It is also quite possible for him to lead armies of Asha man in the front lines, whether it be at the Gap or other places. He could quite possibly do that after clearing up the mess at the Black Tower. The 'bodies of two men lying on the ground with hundreds of trollocs surrounding them' foretelling could mean Logain helping at SG, but how could he live in glory if he's dead? Does the viewing tell if he lives in glory or just is credited with it?
__________________
"I would like to ride alone with you. May I?"
  #9  
Old 04-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless View Post
If we assume someone is going to rescue Lan at Tarwin's Gap, then Logain is probably the best choice for it.
I dunno. Moiraine and Nynaeve are also good choices, but I suspect they will be involved somehow anyway.

Quote:
Does anyone have a copy of EotW on hand who could maybe post the actual description of Tarwin's Gap?
Here you go:

Quote:
He stood in a broad mountain pass, surrounded by jagged black peaks like the teeth of the Dark One. It was real; he was there. He felt the rocks under his boots, the icy breeze on his face.

Battle surrounded him, or the tail end of battle. Armored men on armored horses, shining steel dusty now, slashed and stabbed at snarling Trollocs wielding spiked axes and scythe-like swords. Some men fought afoot, their horses down, and barded horses galloped through the fight with empty saddles. Fades moved among them all, night-black cloaks hanging still however their dark mounts galloped, and wherever their light-eating swords swung, men died. Sound beat at Rand, beat at him and bounced from the strangeness that had him by the throat. The clash of steel against steel, the panting and grunting of men and Trollocs striving, the screams of men and Trollocs dying. Over the din, banners waved in dust-filled air. The Black Hawk of Fal Dara, the White Hart of Shienar, others. And Trolloc banners. In just the little space around him he saw the horned skull of the Dha'vol, the blood-red trident of the Ko'bal, the iron fist of the Dhai'mon.

Yet it was indeed the tail end of battle, a pausing, as humans and Trollocs alike fell back to regroup. None seemed to notice Rand as they paid a few last strokes and broke away, galloping, or running in a stagger, to the ends of the pass.

Rand found himself facing the end of the pass where the humans were re-forming, pennants stirring beneath gleaming lancepoints. Wounded men wavered in their saddles. Riderless horses reared and galloped. Plainly they could not stand another meeting, yet just as plainly they readied themselves for one final charge. Some of them saw him now; men stood in their stirrups to point at him. Their shouts came to him as tiny piping.

Staggering, he turned. The forces of the Dark One filled the other end of the pass, bristling black pikes and spearpoints swelling up onto mountain slopes made blacker still by the great mass of Trollocs that dwarfed the army of Shienar. Fades in hundreds rode across the front of the horde, the fierce, muzzled faces of Trollocs turning away in fear as they passed, huge bodies pulling back to make way. Overhead, Draghkar wheeled on leathery pinions, shrieks challenging the wind. Halfmen saw him now, too, pointed, and Draghkar spun and dove. Two. Three. Six of them, crying shrilly as they plummeted toward him.

He stared at them. Heat filled him, the burning heat of the touched sun. He could see the Draghkar clearly, soulless eyes in pale men's faces on winged bodies that had nothing of humanity about them. Terrible heat. Crackling heat.

From the clear sky lightning came, each bolt crisp and sharp, searing his eyes, each bolt striking a winged black shape. Hunting cries became shrieks of death, and charred forms fell to leave the sky clean again.

The heat. The terrible heat of the Light.

He fell to his knees; he thought he could hear his tears sizzling on his cheeks. "No!" He clutched at tufts of wiry grass for some hold on reality; the grass burst in flame. "Please, nooooooo!"

The wind rose with his voice, howled with his voice, roared with his voice down the pass, whipping the flames to a wall of fire that sped away from him and toward the Trolloc host faster than a horse could run. Fire burned into the Trollocs, and the mountains trembled with their screams, screams almost as loud as the wind and his voice.

"It has to end!"

He beat at the ground with his fist, and the earth tolled like a gong. He bruised his hands on stony soil, and the earth trembled. Ripples ran through the ground ahead of him in ever-rising waves, waves of dirt and rock towering over Trollocs and Fades, breaking over them as the mountains shattered under their hooved feet. A boiling mass of flesh and rubble churned across the Trolloc army. What was left standing was still a mighty host, but now no more than twice the human army in numbers, and milling in fright and confusion.

The wind died. The screams died. The earth was still. Dust and smoke swirled back down the pass to surround him.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #10  
Old 04-05-2011, 06:03 PM
Rahvin571's Avatar
Rahvin571 Rahvin571 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 20
Rahvin571 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Kind of off topic, but I never really caught how much that quote shows Rand being in tune with the land. I know he is channeling in order to cause these things, but RJ is clearly drawing a parallel between the Dragon Reborn and the earth itself.
  #11  
Old 04-06-2011, 11:32 AM
ChubbyAiel ChubbyAiel is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 223
ChubbyAiel is just really niceChubbyAiel is just really niceChubbyAiel is just really niceChubbyAiel is just really niceChubbyAiel is just really niceChubbyAiel is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Futurist Man View Post
2. The most obvious opportunity for glory is the taking down of Taim and his cronies. And although thats a mammoth task, would it really win him the adulation of the peoples of the Westlands? Especially as were False Dragon's go: Logain could easily be said to have trumped Taim on those stakes! So any glee by people at the one defeating the other doesn't seem likely when they're equally feared!
Unless Min's interpretation of the viewing explicitly says he will win the adulation of the Westlands, I think you've inferred something that isn't actually there, certainly not in the quote you've given. If elsewhere Min says he will receive adulation or glory, that's fine, but potentially he could do something "great" without receiving adulation. In taking down Taim he could do something great even no one ever knows he did it.

Even if Min thinks he will receive "glory", that doesn't necessarily mean he will receive widespread, popular recognition for it. He could achieve "glory" in the eyes of the select few who knew what he'd achieved/sacrificed.

Of course, if Min says Logain will indeed receive public, widespread glory that is a different matter; I'm just pointing out that the quote you've given doesn't rule out Option 2 as such.
  #12  
Old 04-06-2011, 12:38 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 26, Sallie Daera
Logain was destined for glory such as few men had dreamed of.
Pretty hard to argue that'd only be known to a few scholars.
  #13  
Old 04-06-2011, 01:23 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Logain was destined for glory such as few men had dreamed of.
But that could well be that he'll be the leader of the Black Tower during the period when it emerges as a major force in the world. It doesn't have to mean he does something in the next book or before Tarmon Gai'don that brings him glory. In fact, the dream of him stepping over Rand's corpse to glory suggests it might not be. (But I had absolutely no doubt we'll be able to infer it from the next book; anything else would be frustrating from a narrative viewpoint)
  #14  
Old 04-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Heinz Heinz is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 234
Heinz will become famous soon enoughHeinz will become famous soon enough
Default

Glory such as few men dream could be something like leadership of the Black Tower, or a leading role in a slowly unifying (it will take time to be 'unified', I think) Tower of men and women. This might not reap him instant glory, but his name could be reveared through the next Age because of the groundwork he helps lay now.

Or 'glory such as few men dream' could mean he does something truly heroic, and is bound to the Wheel.

I don't think we've had enough to go on to begin to predict Logain's glory, with the exception of it could involve his actions in the Black Tower. He and Taim are too matched a pair for that not to be part of Logain's story. What we don't know for sure there is if the glory he's destined for is from this conflict in the Black Tower, or something else.

To the Seanchan issue: I think something will be decided with the channelers. I'm not saying Seanchan will suddenly become buddy-buddy with all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man, but there will be some resolution to the collaring of channelers. I think there are enough pieces to the puzzle with Rand and Justice, Mat and the Prince of Ravens, and the Horn of Valere and the Hero Artur Hawkwing for this to happen. It just seems too big of a storyline to me to be left hanging.

And iirc, Aviendha's vision of the future.. did they still have collared channelers? I remeber the guns, some obviously rifles fired from the back of raken, but I don't remember if damane were mentioned. But that could be me being so used to their presence in Seanchan society that I didn't conciously note them.
  #15  
Old 04-06-2011, 04:39 PM
Lightning Lightning is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 86
Lightning is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

"glory" doesn't necessarily mean popularity. As long as it is widely acknowledged that a great part of the Light's success (assuming the Light wins) in TG was due to Logain's actions, whether it be cleaning up at the BT or fighting at the front lines, the simple fact that he is credited with the act can mean "glory". Or the position he earns (head of BT, head of all channellers, laying groundwork for unification of all channellers) through his actions can be considered as the "glory".

Either way people might still dislike him, but at the same time acknowledge that he has earned honor and respect (which to me are the main ingredients of glory) through his actions.

Glory(noun): praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent [Merriam Webster]
__________________
"I would like to ride alone with you. May I?"
  #16  
Old 04-07-2011, 05:23 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning View Post
Either way people might still dislike him, but at the same time acknowledge that he has earned honor and respect (which to me are the main ingredients of glory) through his actions.
Sort of like how Stalin's glory was acknowledged in the USA after WWII?
Frankly, I don't think that is really a good use of the word "glory".
  #17  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:49 AM
Lightning Lightning is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 86
Lightning is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Sort of like how Stalin's glory was acknowledged in the USA after WWII?
Frankly, I don't think that is really a good use of the word "glory".
I don't really know what you mean with the Stalin thing, he was always viewed as a hateful oppressive dictator in the states, and that is certainly nothing like glory.

No I mean something like me and Shaquille O'Neal. I don't like him, and I've certainly never been a fan, but no matter what, I have to give him credit and respect for the player that he is. What I acknowledge about him is in a positive light. Sorry I can't come up with a political figure right this minute.
__________________
"I would like to ride alone with you. May I?"
  #18  
Old 04-07-2011, 12:19 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Stalin earned the kind of glory you ascribe to Logain by beating the Nazis. I fully admit that he was never loved or liked in the USA. Then again, there is also some prejudice against male channelers in the WOT world, so it would seem that Stalin and Logain are good analogues of each other in this respect.

Thus, if Stalin did not earn any glory despite being the leader who was most responsible for bringing down evil, then why would Logain get that?

Or, to put it differently, and a bit more explicitly: if that kind of glory isn't enough, then it would seem logical to assume that Logain will get more glory, if the prediction is going to come true.
  #19  
Old 04-07-2011, 03:14 PM
Lightning Lightning is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 86
Lightning is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I have to agree that Stalin does make a good example, but he was fundamentally disliked for being a communist dictator, and that never changed about him. There is an alternative for Logain though. What if he is absolved of the crimes that had caused people's dislike for him in the first place? What if it becomes known that he genuinely thought that he was the Dragon Reborn and he did what he did thinking that it was his responsibility? People will probably still dislike him but he won't be the personification of evil the way he would have been as a False Dragon.

I think that after TG, when it becomes clear that male channellers are no more evil than female ones the general hatred for them will slowly melt away into discomfort and eventually acceptance. There is no time specification for when Logain will reach his glory, so may be he will gain it eventually and overtime, as people begin to accept male channellers and forgive him for his past crimes. And in that light he can take full credit for his 'glory inducing' actions.
__________________
"I would like to ride alone with you. May I?"
  #20  
Old 04-07-2011, 07:45 PM
New Futurist Man's Avatar
New Futurist Man New Futurist Man is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 103
New Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really niceNew Futurist Man is just really nice
Default

Logain coming to Lan's aid would be kind of out of the blue. If he did, presumably it would be on the Dragon's orders, and not something he does of his own volition.

There seems more pressing problems for Logain: the Black Tower and Caemlyn been uppermost.
__________________
"Hypotheses are nets: only he who casts will catch." - Novalis

Last edited by New Futurist Man; 04-12-2011 at 08:29 PM.
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.