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  #1  
Old 05-14-2011, 10:04 PM
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Default Taim- High functioning lunatic?

I kinda like the idea that Taim is absolutely nuts, and that his unusual knowledge is due to his own voice of a past life. Maybe he is like Masema, and he received the knowledge once he appeared to be useful, or was further twisted. Perhaps even an Aram? An enemy, but due to madness, maybe he really believes that he is the Dragon, and that he needs to overthrow the Dragon to save the world, and his early submission was an 'act'. If the gauntlet clutching lighting symbolizes the rank of a general in the war of power, a voice could have told him.
  #2  
Old 05-14-2011, 11:13 PM
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I kinda like the idea that Taim is absolutely nuts, and that his unusual knowledge is due to his own voice of a past life. Maybe he is like Masema, and he received the knowledge once he appeared to be useful, or was further twisted. Perhaps even an Aram? An enemy, but due to madness, maybe he really believes that he is the Dragon, and that he needs to overthrow the Dragon to save the world, and his early submission was an 'act'. If the gauntlet clutching lighting symbolizes the rank of a general in the war of power, a voice could have told him.
A nice idea, but it is almost a given by the end of TOM that Taim is a Darkfriend. Crazy? Probably, but still a DF nonetheless.
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:40 PM
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A nice idea, but it is almost a given by the end of TOM that Taim is a Darkfriend. Crazy? Probably, but still a DF nonetheless.
Almost? It's been a certainty for quite some time. The only major change was that since WH we've known that he isn't Demandred, which only leaves the question of whether he has his own seat at the table (even if we've yet to see him in it...), or, if not, if he is Moridin's lieutenant or Demandred's- or both, I suppose. But him being an adjutant for Moridin seems the most likely option. This would explain both his extensive training and knowledge, as well as his presumed use of TP.

Not sure why you guys think that he's crazy. It is, after all, possible to be evil without being insane. He's been a more able administrator than basically anyone else, good or bad. Dude's badass, which, frankly, is why I still find it incredibly disappointing that he isn't Demandred. Hopefully he doesn't come to an anti-climactic end.
  #4  
Old 05-15-2011, 01:34 AM
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Almost? It's been a certainty for quite some time. The only major change was that since WH we've known that he isn't Demandred, which only leaves the question of whether he has his own seat at the table (even if we've yet to see him in it...), or, if not, if he is Moridin's lieutenant or Demandred's- or both, I suppose. But him being an adjutant for Moridin seems the most likely option. This would explain both his extensive training and knowledge, as well as his presumed use of TP.

Not sure why you guys think that he's crazy. It is, after all, possible to be evil without being insane. He's been a more able administrator than basically anyone else, good or bad. Dude's badass, which, frankly, is why I still find it incredibly disappointing that he isn't Demandred. Hopefully he doesn't come to an anti-climactic end.
By almost I meant almost with a chance of him NOT being a DF at .01% if not lower. The only reason that remains is because he has not said it himself, or have a POV from him claiming it.

Also, I meant that he is probably crazy in the sense that he is crazy evil (like doing the 13x13 without anyone else sensing Fades nearby). But possibly (due to some of the taint at least, because he should have had some when he first started channeling) plain mad too, if only very slightly.
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:54 AM
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I had a thought that when he first came to Rand, he was good. There are a few small instances I recall, like when Rand made an outburst at LT's voice in his head, Taim actually looked conscerned. I'm thinking that when Osan'gar(Aka Aginor aka Dashiva) came into the picture, he, along with a few other DFs that came to the tower, converted Taim by a 13x13. And since none of us, or Rand for that matter, really knew him all that well, there wasn't really any noticible change in the way he acts.

But that's just a theory of mine I don't really believe in myself, I'm just puting it out there in the realm of possibility. I mean, if he really was under Ishy/Moridin's thumb the whole time, than why proclaim himself as the Dragon? He would have been of better use to Ishy hidden away and not out in the open where there was risk of him being caught by the wrong Reds and gentled on the spot.

I mean, knowing how to test people, he would have been more useful in hunting Rand at the beginning, maybe befriending him and such, and pointing him out to Ishy instead of leaving him guessing between the three Ta'veren. Of course, Ishy was pretty insane himself before he died so perhapse he just didn't think about that. If I were in Ishy's place, I'd have sent Taim, if he was my pawn, to the TR instead of relying on Fain.

But the way I see it, Taim was not always a darkfriend. At least, not until after he had been captured by AS and then rescued. Maybe it was then he turned to the shadow and he had just resisted the taint the way he said he had. Or maybe he was going mad and Ishy healed him with the TP and drew him in that way. We just don't very much about Taim before he came to Rand.
  #6  
Old 05-15-2011, 10:02 AM
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Edynol - I can imagine a scenario where Taim turned to the Shadow after being captured recently, rather than being forcibly turned or having "always" been a darkfriend. It seems likely to me that he could have been captured by the Reds, some or all of whom may have been Black. A Forsaken, either Ishy or Demandred, then turns up and makes him an offer he can't refuse, i.e. "Join the dark side and I'll set you free, get you out of the taint, and power and glory beyond your wildest dreams etc." It would explain why when he first joined the Dragon he wasn't acting as shadowy as he is now - initially he would have been low-ranked and only just having joined, but as one of the Shadow's most valuably placed operatives he'd rise swiftly through the ranks to the point where he gets all of his orders from the Forsaken, if he wasn't in fact already at that point as Ishy or Demandred's personal tool as soon as he escaped.

If I remember correctly, wasn't there also a reasonable amount of time in between him escaping and turning up in Caemlyn, during which he could have been taught one or two tricks by Ishy or Demandred?
  #7  
Old 05-15-2011, 10:32 AM
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I think so, yeah. Like 2-3 book? But yeah, what you said is what I generally believe and think is most likely. I just hope that Logain gets to take him out. I think the Glory Min see for Logain will be him becoming Tamyrlin or something. I see the two towers coming together after the Last Battle and everyone becomming Aes Sedai.
  #8  
Old 05-15-2011, 11:30 AM
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@ Zombie

It is certainly not implausible that such a scenario led to his initial recruitment, but it has to predate, presumably by a number of years (though not too many, since RJ later backtracked on how old he is...), his activities as a false dragon in Saldaea.

This would seem the most likely scenario:

1- Taim is discovered by Black sisters
2- He defeats them, and takes them captive
3- They negotiate with Taim, he makes a deal
4- Ishamael takes note of his potential, teaches him

* (alternative for steps 1-4- Taim sparks as a DF, and seeks out the Blacks or Shayol Ghul on his own, actively seeking the DO's protection against tainted saidin )

5- Taim is provided the DO's filtered saidin
6- Taim starts recruiting male DF channelers for Ishamael, most of those who pass go insane; he has to kill them
7- Ishamael finds the real dragon
8- Taim ordered to declare himself dragon in Saldaea to sow chaos and uncertainty
9- Rand declares himself the dragon at Falme; Taim is captured
10- Ishamael orders Black sisters to find & free Taim
11- Taim freed
12- Ishamael slain in duel with Rand

Up till this point the only real question would seem to be that initial contact. But after Ishamael's fall we have one major question left to ponder- which Forsaken gave Taim that seal? Did he already have it, from Ishamael, or did another Forsaken (or Shadar Haran) give it to him after Ishamael's fall? Did Moridin give it to him after he was recycled? This question leads to another. If he already had the seal, was his decision to approach Rand his own plan, or was he given the seal by one of the Forsaken and sent to Rand, with the seal designed as a proof of his good intentions, or at least good inclinations.

Anyway, here is a continuation of the likely progression, though the first few here are obviously the most ambiguous - hell, I'm just going to give two possible progressions from this point.

Scenario A:
13- Moridin finds Taim, convinces him that he is Ishamael Recycled
14- Taim given the seal, sent to Caemlyn to join Rand
15- Taim ordered to continue urging expanding recruitment
16- Taim begins to grow his coterie of DFs in the BT
17- Logain arrives at the BT
18- Taim (amonst others) orders the hit on Rand
19- Taim uses TP during meeting with Elayne (promotion or reward?)
20- Taim orders the failed assassins to hunt down Rand & kill him
21- Logain leaves the BT
22- Taim steps up plans to convert whole BT
23- Taim given dreamspike by Moridin
24- 13x13 begins

Scenario B
13- Taim goes to Shayol Ghul to get new orders after Ishamael's death
14- Taim given the seal, sent to Caemlyn to join Rand
15- Taim continues urging expanding recruitment
16- Taim begins to grow his coterie of DFs in the BT
17- Logain arrives at the BT
18- Taim (along with Demandred and Osan'gar, but not Moridin) orders the hit on Rand
19- Taim promoted to Chosen status (this could be as early as step 13, but has to come before 20)
20- Taim uses TP during meeting with Elayne
21- Taim orders the failed assassins to hunt down Rand & kill him
22- Moridin orders assassins to kill Rand if they must, but to ensure that they get back his possessions
23- Moridin, as Nae'blis, reasserts control over Taim
24- Logain leaves the BT
25- Taim steps up plans to convert whole BT
26- Taim given dreamspike by Moridin
27- 13x13 begins

Last edited by Kimon; 05-15-2011 at 11:33 AM.
  #9  
Old 05-15-2011, 11:39 AM
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What makes you think he used the TP during his meeting with Elayne?
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:40 AM
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What makes you think he used the TP during his meeting with Elayne?
She sees an aura of darkness around him. The same sort of aura that people start seeing around Rand after he starts using the TP.
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Old 05-15-2011, 01:10 PM
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We know that access to the TP is a very very big honour. Why would Taim warrent such an honour? The DO's view of the world is affected by the prejudices of his servants. RJ said as much and the forsaken think that the current generation are a bunch of savages.

I agree that its likely that Taim was recruited by Ishamael or an agent of his and I could see him being protected and given special privilages given his strength but would the DO let his tap the True Power for no reason? That seems doubtfull.
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Old 05-15-2011, 01:37 PM
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Kimon - I'm unsure why you think he would have to be recruited by Ishamael years before acting as a False Dragon. It is conceivably possible, but I was thinking he would have turned after being captured whilst False Dragoning in Saldaea. There does seem to be a good little while in between him being captured in Book 3/end of Book 2 and turning up later. If he's got the "see it once and know it" talent, Demandred could have taught him all sorts of things during that time.
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:41 PM
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Kimon - I'm unsure why you think he would have to be recruited by Ishamael years before acting as a False Dragon. It is conceivably possible, but I was thinking he would have turned after being captured whilst False Dragoning in Saldaea. There does seem to be a good little while in between him being captured in Book 3/end of Book 2 and turning up later. If he's got the "see it once and know it" talent, Demandred could have taught him all sorts of things during that time.
The main hint (besides his seemingly extensive knowledge of advanced weaves) is his knowledge of the testing weave and the fact that he was, admittedly on a limited scale, already doing some recruiting of male channelers prior to becoming a false dragon. That is an activity that is hard to square with a man keeping a low enough profile to avoid detection prior to his claim of being the dragon, not to mention the fact, what possible reason might he have had for recruitment but to find more dreadlords for the Shadow? Yet if he was already a dreadlord, this activity makes much more sense, as does how he could have done this and not raised enough red flags to draw the attention of the reds and other Aes Sedai- he was only recruiting known DFs, and likely was already operating under the assistance of the Black Ajah.

Concerning the time lapse between his liberation, a known Black Ajah operation, and his reappearance in Caemlyn, keep in mind, that this is not that great a duration of time. Falme (and hence Taim's capture) occurred on Nesan 26, 998 NE = Nov. 21st. News of his escape came on Amadaine 1, 999 NE = June 8th. Taim's arrival in Caemlyn was on Nesan 2, 999 NE = Oct. 28th. Taim's escape occurred at Denhuir in the Black Hills. That gives him 5 months to somehow get the seal (presumably he didn't have it with him in captivity, though I suppose that is remotely possible), get his new orders, and then travel to Caemlyn. Of course, Rand doesn't get to Caemlyn until Sept. 21st. On that same day he met Bashere and announced his amnesty. Forward one month, and Taim shows up with the seal.

I suppose he could have showed up on Sept. 22nd, but that might have been a bit too suspicious, nay?
  #14  
Old 05-15-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
We know that access to the TP is a very very big honour. Why would Taim warrent such an honour? The DO's view of the world is affected by the prejudices of his servants. RJ said as much and the forsaken think that the current generation are a bunch of savages.

I agree that its likely that Taim was recruited by Ishamael or an agent of his and I could see him being protected and given special privilages given his strength but would the DO let his tap the True Power for no reason? That seems doubtfull.
The scene with Taim and the dark aura was pointed out to Brandon last year, noting the similarity between it and Rand's dark aura after channeling the True Power.

The scene from WH:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue - Snow

"Mazrim Taim has come at last, my Lady." Reene managed to make that sound very like "my Queen." "Shall I tell him to wait?"

Not before time! Elayne muttered in her head. She had summoned the man two days ago! "Yes, Mistress Harfor. Give him wine. The third best, I think. Inform him that I will see him as soon as Ió"

Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-And-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

The Twitter Q&A about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS
HBFFerreira on Twitter - 20 July 2010 2:35 pm
The Gathering Storm: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling the True Power, right? Winter's Heart prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

Brandon - 21 July 12:18 am
You're the first to notice that that I've seen.
So. . . Brandon's response has sparked discussion about Taim's possible use of the True Power.
  #15  
Old 05-15-2011, 05:51 PM
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Its possible though that someone else was using the TP and hid himself with it. Demandred? It might explain Taim's comment about numbers and why Taim seems to be so good. I doubt if even Cadsuane's jewels would pick up the TP. Though it sounds a bit far fetched I think.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
The main hint (besides his seemingly extensive knowledge of advanced weaves) is his knowledge of the testing weave and the fact that he was, admittedly on a limited scale, already doing some recruiting of male channelers prior to becoming a false dragon
Who recruited Taim, when and why? I mean look at the clues. The BA reveal a plot to use a false dragon against Rand, a plot that may have begun earlier with Logain? The BA's orders likely came from Ishy and likely the subject was already a DF at this point.

If Taim was already in training, when did he start? the rest of the forsaken had only been recently freed. Could they have taught him so much so soon? (Lets forget the so called aiel comment for now)

And If Ishy was training him, how long had he been around? If Ishy recruited Taim around age 15, then he has to have been active for more than 15 years now. Almost right back to the aiel war. Scary.
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  #17  
Old 05-15-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Who recruited Taim, when and why? I mean look at the clues. The BA reveal a plot to use a false dragon against Rand, a plot that may have begun earlier with Logain? The BA's orders likely came from Ishy and likely the subject was already a DF at this point.

If Taim was already in training, when did he start? the rest of the forsaken had only been recently freed. Could they have taught him so much so soon? (Lets forget the so called aiel comment for now)

And If Ishy was training him, how long had he been around? If Ishy recruited Taim around age 15, then he has to have been active for more than 15 years now. Almost right back to the aiel war. Scary.
Taim isn't old enough for his activities to go back that far.

Here is what RJ was willing to say about his age in various interviews:

Quote:
RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.
Quote:
WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?
RJ: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.
So he probably was channeling for at least 5 years prior to declaring himself the dragon, but likely not more (or at least not much more) than 10 years. In any case, long enough to have slowed. But unless he sparked at around 5-10 years old, not long enough to have been an active channeler since the Aiel War.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-15-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:29 PM
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Does slowed mean losing ability in the one power?
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:36 PM
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Does slowed mean losing ability in the one power?
No, slowing refers to the point when a channeler starts aging more slowly.
  #20  
Old 05-16-2011, 09:41 PM
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His age is one of the main reasons I am entertaining this notion. And if there was a Black Ajah plot regarding Taim, the Black sisters in Tear knew nothing of it. There is no reason his "voice" cannot be a Chosen not bound.
 

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