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Old 06-12-2011, 05:06 PM
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Default "Sometimes doubt fills me, Moiraine": Who is the Dragon?

Early in the Wheel of Time series Siuan asks Moiraine a simply question, who is the Dragon?

At times, I feel as Siuan character does... is Rand al'Thor truly the Dragon?

Quote:
“Yes, Moiraine. You do not have to remind me. I’ve lived with the Prophecies of the Dragon as long as you.” The Amyrlin shook her head. “Never more than one false Dragon in a generation since the Breaking, and now three loose in the world at one time, and three more in the past two years. The Pattern demands a Dragon because the Pattern weaves toward Tarmon Gai’don. Sometimes doubt fills me, Moiraine.” She said it musingly, as if wondering at it, and went on in the same tone. “What if Logain was the one? He could channel, before the Reds brought him to the White Tower, and we gentled him. So can Mazrim Taim, the man in Saldaea. What if it is him? There are sisters in Saldaea already; he may be taken by now. What if we have been wrong since the start? What happens if the Dragon Reborn is gentled before the Last Battle even begins? Even prophecy can fail if the one prophesied is slain or gentled. And then we face the Dark One naked to the storm.”

“Neither of them is the one, Siuan. The Pattern does not demand a Dragon, but the one true Dragon. Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others. If Logain or the other were the one, there would be no others.”


The Great Hunt, Moiraine point of view, with Siuan behind a Saidar Ward

Questions
  1. If Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon, why is Taim able to remain a 'False Dragon' in the Black Tower still?
    Bluntly, Moiraine claims that Taim should not be able to become a false Dragon, after 'he proclaims himself'. Well, Rand has proclaimed himself... yet Taim still is acting like a 'False Dragon'--with his fashion style and all. See CoT, KoD books among others for scenes.

    Has Moiraine, Siuan and Moridin all been had? Rand isn't the Dragon?
  2. Why is it assumed the Dragon is a male channeler?


  3. How did the Dragon coming, 'tear (torn) apart the world'?



Wool-Buyer Guard's tale


Quote:
What kind of need would be great enough that we’d want the Dragon to save us from it? ” Rand mused. “As well ask for help from the Dark One .”

“He didn’t say,” Mat replied uncomfortably. “And he didn’t mention any new Age of Legends. He said the world would be torn apart by the Dragon’s coming. ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "The Peddler" -- Rand point of view, with Perrin, Mat Cauthon
Early into the story, Rand had not even visited Ghealdan nor Saldaea nor Tear nor Illian yet--however they all were already or beginning to be torn apart. Even Shara too.
  • Does the Dragon physically need to have visited each place at least once previously for it to be torn apart?

    If that answer is yes, then the number of candidates available to be the 'true' Dragon sinks quickly to perhaps one.


Have prophecies muddied categories of characters, and what each individual is suppose to do? Let alone each's identity?

My answer, to the last two questions, is yes and yes.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 06-12-2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: fixed typo
  #2  
Old 06-12-2011, 05:48 PM
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I think that Siuan's statement was more to show her own growing uncertainty of what to do to prepare the world for the Last Battle. Until Moiraine filled her in on what had just happened Siuan must have wondered when sending sisters to deal with the various false dragaons what if they got it wrong and attacked the real dragon reborn?

Once she had her briefing from Moiraine her certaintly that Rand was the real deal never wavered just what needed to be done with him.

As far as there being no more false dragon's after Rand proclaimed himself, that was when Taim was defeated by the visions in the sky. It does not mean that all false dragons will drop dead and never be heard from again. Taim is acting as leader of the Black Tower not as a false dragon. He is not going out to raise armies and conquor nations.

Lastly I don't think that the dragon breaking the world means he will physically destroy it but that rather due to his existance there were will be events that shatter the social order, throw the world into chaos etc. He does not have to be physically in a place to effect it and it may not even be his fault exactly. The pattern does seem to be moving a lot of young tallent into positions of power for the last battle and that means that the existing status quo is being challenged. Add this to the DO's plan to wrap the world in chaos and no wonder places are seen to be 'breaking'
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:20 PM
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You know, I only started reading the books after the first was split, and in the two years between from the two rivers and to the blight I thought Logain was the dragon
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:18 AM
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So, Mat isn't the true Dragon reborn and car'a'carn? Hmmmm.... I wonder who has been physically in Ghealdan by the time Fain visits the Two Rivers. Wait, I know the answer.

VALAN LUCA is the TRUE Dragon reborn!!!
  #5  
Old 06-13-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
[*]If Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon, why is Taim able to remain a 'False Dragon' in the Black Tower still?
He is not a false dragon. He can dress up with dragons all he wants, but no one in the world thinks Taim is the Dragon Reborn anymore, and Taim doesn't claim that he is. Thus, he is not, and your question is irrelevant.

Quote:
[*] Why is it assumed the Dragon is a male channeler?
IMO, it's because Lews Therin Telamon was the Dragon, and he was a male channeler. But, you know...take that with a grain of salt. Not so much an assumption as an acknowledgement of history.

Quote:
How did the Dragon coming, 'tear (torn) apart the world'?
Ask the Aiel, or the Cairhienin, or the Altarans, or the Seanchan. For that matter, ask the White Tower, the Two Rivers, the Whitecloaks, and the Amayar. Oh wait, the Amayar are all dead now.

Quote:
Does the Dragon physically need to have visited each place at least once previously for it to be torn apart?
Why would he? Furthermore, Seanchan is completely torn asunder, and no one has been there except the Forsaken. Are you suggesting Semirhage was the Dragon Reborn? Or is it Tuon?
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:31 PM
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What books are you reading?

LTT is the Dragon.
Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

If you are trying to argue that Rand and LTT do not have the same Soul... good luck with that.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
What books are you reading?

LTT is the Dragon.
Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

If you are trying to argue that Rand and LTT do not have the same Soul... good luck with that.
He realizes his gimmick is running dry, so he's going full out to get as many replies from the few gullibles as he can.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluejam View Post
He realizes his gimmick is running dry, so he's going full out to get as many replies from the few gullibles as he can.
Oh c'mon now. It's fun!
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:25 PM
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But what if he isnt, it will be the greatest plot twist in the history of novels as we know it.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." This could strongly support that Rand is in Fact not the dragon reborn.

I'm supporting an alternate theory that Padan Fain is in fact the dragon reborn.

Its accepted that the prophecies are answered in an oblique manner and that our expectations are answered in ways that are unexpected. Take for example the prophecy much mused on by Rand about the dragons blood on the rocks of shayol ghul, which character do we know who has been to shayol ghul and had blood spilt? Padan Fain.

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken.
Padan fain is the power of the shadow in human flesh, he is now much more and much worse than a human. He chains shadowsworn to him many times and he was reborn in what city lost and forsaken? Shadar Logoth. He is continually marked and bleeding by his dagger.

"and the three shall be one." Padan Fain has already become one person from three, padan fain the darkfriend, padan fain the hound of the dark one and ordieth.

Padan Fain is last seen heading towards Shayol looking for revenge on the dark one, what better way to get revenge than to be the one to seal the world from the dark one.
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Old 06-13-2011, 07:22 PM
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:39 PM
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  #12  
Old 06-14-2011, 12:17 AM
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Possible multi.
  #13  
Old 06-14-2011, 01:30 AM
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Felix, Felix... *shakes head*

I sincerely hope you did not post from 2 accounts.

I enjoy reading your weird theories, because they are quite far fetched but still have a grounding in the series. Like really twisted shadow theoryland things. They do not need a 'second voice'.

I think that Rand = Dragon. But having your alternate reality there it's fun to read nonetheless.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
Why would he? Furthermore, Seanchan is completely torn asunder, and no one has been there except the Forsaken. Are you suggesting Semirhage was the Dragon Reborn? Or is it Tuon?
Rand was there on his first date with Aviendha.
Of course, Mat may have been there too, in the book in which he did not make an appearance.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Rand was there on his first date with Aviendha.
Of course, Mat may have been there too, in the book in which he did not make an appearance.
Spoilsport.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
Spoilsport.
Hey, I had to defend my "Mat is the DR" theory, hadn't I?
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Old 06-19-2011, 04:32 AM
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Default Who is the Dragon? Stages of Belief, Doubt, Exploration, and Claim(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Hey, I had to defend my "Mat is the DR" theory, hadn't I?
Chuckles, you've reached a post-Rand DR process of belief. Far better than average. Means your open to new ideas, and a fresh look at evidence.


As far as I can tell, most individuals patterns of belief about who 'the Dragon' is, goes like this:

  • 1st -- Rand is the Dragon
  • 2nd -- Matrim Cauthon is the Dragon
  • 3rd -- Who the hell knows? It's a mystery. It just does not add up.
  • 4th -- Valan Luca is the Dragon.

Can't say I've heard of many readers if any WoT readers, on any forum, claim that 'the former creature known Padan Fain Mordeth' is the Dragon.
t.f.c.k.P.F.M. lacks a soul, a tie to the Constellations or Stars, unlike every other prime candidate claimed to 'the Dragon'.

Recollect, 'the Dragon' is a force on the side of the Light, not the Shadow or Blacker than Black (e.g Aridhol).
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2011, 02:17 PM
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Is English your first language? I don't know, just some little oddities. Italic if then any should be if italic any. The creature formerly known as padan fain.

Also I think it will take more than one post disagreeing with the padan fain is the dragon one to convince us you aren't posting from two accounts.
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:55 PM
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From reading all of the threads currently active on the board, I am now convinced that Egwene is the Dragon Reborn.
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Old 06-19-2011, 04:46 PM
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Definitely possible. People are often talking of her, she inspires many people, and is hated by many she was born to save. Not to mention cities going nuts when she visits. (tanchico)
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