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  #1  
Old 06-24-2011, 09:27 PM
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Default CotW – Tigraine Mantear Damodred

To recap the concept:

First, pop over here for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Tigraine Mantear Damodred:

In hindsight we know that she was right to follow mysterious instructions to leave her family, her son, her country, her duties and obligations, her entire way of life...but what does that say about her?

Was in blind faith in Aes Sedai and their infallibility? Could it have been Compulsion, or was she just emotionally impacted by the conversation she had with her Mother's advisor Gitara Moroso? (Incidentally, a Blue with the Foretelling, and over 300 years at her sudden death)?

Related to the reason she went, you have to consider that Tigraine proved to be sheerly stubborn in her quest to become a Maiden, why? Stubbornness to do something well if she was going to do it all? Or perhaps Compulsion?

Was she foolish and selfish to go into battle so heavily pregnant? Do you think that the instructions that Gitara maybe gave her also included her needing to fight? In a battle? On a mountain? In the snow? Back in her homeland? Did she push Janduin to become the leader of the four Clans to ensure that she would be front and centre?

Ultimately, I see her as one of the bravest characters in the series. She leaves everything she knows and loves (her own child) and goes off to follow an uncertain fate (or was it?). She looks at death and keeps struggling. She faced an impossible future (even if all she knew was that she had to go and be Maiden), and she made it possible.

Did she know that the child she was destined to carry was the Dragon Reborn? If she knew, then she was unspeakably brave. To know that your child will one day destroy the world (basically speaking) must suck, on epic levels. Increasingly an intriguing character...

I have to admit that Tigraine has always been a mystery to me. We see so many secondary and largely non-important characters fleshed out, that when one isn't, I wonder why...

So?
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:56 PM
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I think that maybe, when she got pregnant and they crossed the Dragonwall, she might have begun to suspect something. She knew via the Foretelling that her mission was very important, which was more cause for suspicion than even Tam had, when he found Rand on Dragonmount.
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2011, 10:13 PM
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Dammit New Spring was tricksy! I actually picked up my book to check, and saw that she was "as flamboyant as a Green or Yellow" and didn't go any further than that. Fixed!
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  #4  
Old 06-24-2011, 10:21 PM
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Isn't it tigraine mantear?
And I get the feeling gitara was one of those Aes Sedai of legend, a force to be reckoned with. Like a cadsuane with diplomacy skills. I'm sure she had all of the passion of her ajah, and it was almost contagious. Moiraine respected her greatly, and she shows a passion comparable to what I imagine tigraine felt. I'm sure tigraine respected her greatly, and accepted her judgement.

It likely didn't hurt that she was a bound Aes Sedai with the foretelling either.

And something has to be said about genetics...galad and rand are two of the most dutiful characters in the series.

What's more, I'll bet she too saw through Bryne's charade.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:24 PM
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Isn't it tigraine mantear?
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:36 PM
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Given some of Elayne's views I doubt andor would want a queen from a cairhienin house. And Dobraine might have been speaking as a cairhienin who knew Elayne (trakand) would rule regardless, complaining while acknowledging its futility.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:39 PM
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Tigraine is one of those characters that I have a hard time understanding. I'm not one for pure faith over reason. That's one of the reasons I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did. They were singleminded in their pursuit of the true dragon reborn in the same way Tigraine pursued her end. Faith like that just kind of gives me the willies.

I need to reread some of the quotes about her and get a feel for her again.
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:01 AM
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... I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did.
We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.


A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:04 AM
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Her faith could have been born from reason- she deduced that a foretelling Aes Sedai knew what she was about.

Although the luc thing seems sketchy, so she may have been black.
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.
Dobraine seemed to emphasize that Taringail could have done so because Morgase needed the marriage so badly. Tigraine would have had no such need, if anything, wouldn't doing so have tarnished her claim, or at least the prestige of House Mantear, as then she would have (had she now gone awol) ruled as a Damodred rather than a Mantear, as a Cairhienin rather than an Andoran. That would likely have not gone over well. The fact that Galad kept his dad's name can be easily explained - Taringail wanted Galad to have the chance to rule Cairhien, hence the need for him to carry the Cairhienin name. Elayne, like Tigraine and Morgase, needed the Andoran name. Gawyn didn't really matter for political inheritance purposes, and wouldn't unless Galad died, in which case it might have made sense for him to undergo a transitio ad Damodred, but baring that his house affiliation was unimportant.
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:31 AM
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Tigraine not being Ta'veren would have been driven to complete the foretelling. Would the pattern have allowed her to not believe the foretelling or even fail in her mission? Being raised as an Andoran noble and the daughter heir no less would mean she would not have led a very difficult life (Speculation but a reasonable one) but when she heard the foretelling she drops everything and leaves. Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste.
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:48 AM
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Tigraine not being Ta'veren would have been driven to complete the foretelling. Would the pattern have allowed her to not believe the foretelling or even fail in her mission? Being raised as an Andoran noble and the daughter heir no less would mean she would not have led a very difficult life (Speculation but a reasonable one) but when she heard the foretelling she drops everything and leaves. Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste.
Kind of what I wondered too. She has lived as the Daughter-Heir of Andor all her life, and the Game of Houses in Andor pales in comparison to Cairhein or Tear. So, maybe she had help from one or two highly trust-worthy servants like Morgase did? Remember, most people didn't even realize she had left until after Rand had killed Rahvin (hence all the rumors of him killing her). So it can be done discreetly, she would just need a couple of highly loyal servants to help her that would either come with her or keep their mouths shut no matter what.
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.
We don't have a POV from Gitara and since it's not like people know they are being compulsed, it's hard to say either way. I just think that the level of faith these three have put into one person is eerie. The only person who has had that level of faith in Rand, the real live Dragon was insane and he's dead now. I don't feel like it's beyond reason that all three or even four, if you include Luc, were compulsed in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreasoner
Her faith could have been born from reason- she deduced that a foretelling Aes Sedai knew what she was about.

Although the luc thing seems sketchy, so she may have been black
She doesn't have to be black. They discuss sisters who are able to get Daddy to buy new shoes for them and all sorts of little tricks. Maybe Gitara could do that and had refined it over her 300 some years. Or she could have just had a knack for it.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.
I think it more likely that some deal had been made that male offspring, or the first male offspring, would be Damodred.

All the times a House is mentioned for Tigraine, it is Mantear. Examples:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoT, Chapter 11, Talk of Debts
Choosing who would be Queen of Andor was quite simple, boiled down to essentials. There were over four hundred Houses in the realm, but only nineteen strong enough that others would follow where they led. Usually, all nineteen stood behind the Daughter-Heir, or most of them, unless she was plainly incompetent. House Mantear had lost the throne to Trakand when Mordrellen died only because Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir, had vanished and Mantear had begun running heavily to boy children. And because Morgase Trakand had gathered thirteen Houses in her support. Only ten of the nineteen were necessary to ascend the throne, by law and custom. Even claimants who still thought they should have the throne themselves usually fell in with the rest, or at least fell silent and gave up their pursuit, once another woman had ten Houses at her back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Glossary
Succession: In general, when one House succeeds another on the throne. In Andor, the term is widely used for the struggle for the throne that arose upon Mordrellen's death. Tigraine's disappearance had left Mantear without a Daughter-Heir, and two years passed before Morgase, of House Trakand, took the throne. Outside of Andor, this conflict was known as the Third War of Andoran Succession.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:49 PM
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Tigraine is set up like a tragic figure, someone who had to be at the right place at the right time to give birth to the savior, but she was badass about it. One does not walk willingly into the Waste, a wetlander does not get adopted into Aiel society, a Maiden does not marry a clan chief, etc.

But she gets it done. She throws everything away and does what she has to, even though it meant giving up her son and eventually dying. That level of 'suck it up and get it done'-ness is something her younger son obviously didn't inherit from her. Pity.
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Old 06-26-2011, 03:44 AM
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Are you saying that Rand should marry Rhuarc?
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Isn't it tigraine mantear?
OKay - we've resolved this issue by editing the OP to include Mantear. Now let's talk about things that are actually interesting.

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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
What's more, I'll bet she too saw through Bryne's charade.
This mad eme curious - what exactly do you mean to imply here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sei'taer View Post
Tigraine is one of those characters that I have a hard time understanding. I'm not one for pure faith over reason. That's one of the reasons I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did. They were singleminded in their pursuit of the true dragon reborn in the same way Tigraine pursued her end. Faith like that just kind of gives me the willies.

I need to reread some of the quotes about her and get a feel for her again.
I'll dig some up - both about Gitara and Tigraine. Ultimately, I always chalked up the single-mindedness of Suian and Moiraine as their hallmark Blue behaviour. As if what they saw happen in the Amyrlin's study was what cemented their desire to be Blue because now they had a quest, a purpose to follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.
This is another interesting factor to consider, Luc by all accounts (and admittedly, there are few) was not a Darkfriend when he was younger, and in fact seems to have crossed either during or following his meeting with Isam. Which, in and of itself, is an intersting thing to consider...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?
This though, this fascinates me! Let's get some timeline information confirmed. Younglings, this is an excellent time to point you in the direction of Terez's signature link: go forth and find associated timeline info to shed some light on this issue.

We could speculate that her journey alone (or with a retainer) across the land would have taken significantly longer than that of our Mains, as they had assistance and lots of fast horses, and you know, the Ways. Tigraine had no access to those things, and would have had to make way much more slowly. But does that account for a year or two? We need to narrow this down.

I have to say though, I never believed that Tigraine allowed herself to suffer so hard to get the result of sympathy over death when she finally met the Maidens. I think rather, that she was more like Elayne in regards to stubbornness. She would meet them and convince them or die trying. The Pattern wouldn't let her die, and so she succeeded. The fact that she succeeded with such panache just speaks to how damn awesome she was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa View Post
Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste.
I'm of two minds here. The first is that while Elayne (our only comparable character) has been naive and fussy and spoiled on her journeys - she was also resourceful and canny enough to avoid the worst. Her training as Daughter-Heir seems to have prepared her for identifying bullshitters and not tolerating it. So, I don't necessarily see her being robbed or abused significantly during her travels to the Waste.

The second thought is that notwithstanding that, she would have been stupid, so very stupid, not to bring along someone to help her. None of us know what exactly Gitara told her, and we all know how important the exact word are in these circumstances, but I'm sure Gitara did not say that she and a trusty servant would have to ... blah blah blah. So, she would have had to contradict the orders of an Aes Sedai, which is also so very stupid if you put yourself in her shoes. It could be that there is an untold hero a la Basel Gill hiding in the ether.

The very last thing I wanted to touch on was the question of whether Tigraine knew she was part of destiny when she crossed.

Again, as we don't know what Gitara told her, we can't say for sure she knew her destiny had anything to do with the Dragon - it could have been that Gitara told her Andor would fail if she didn't go. That certainly would have been enough for Elayne. But maybe it was more...

We know that the Aiel didn't plan becoming embattled in and around Tar Valon and Dragonmount, it was just a matter of war. If the Aiel saw themselves as a strikeforce coming in to take out Cairhien, then Tar Valon was simply a casualty of being in the way. So, could she have foreseen her battling on the mountain? I don't think so...

But could she have stopped herself given the fact that she was heavily pregnant? Um, yes? This is where I run into trouble. Up until insisting on fighting that day, I believe Tigraine to be one of the most selfless and brave characters in WoT. Choosing to expose yourself and your unborn child to harm deliberately - not so brave and not so selfish. I sort of hope that it did occur to her, knowing the Karaethenon Cycle as she must have, that her actions were giving way to the Dragon as she died.
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2011, 12:48 PM
nameless nameless is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.


A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?
Luc's disappearance is the part that's really interesting to me. Tigraine leaving makes perfect sense. She needs to conceive and deliver the Dragon, who needs to be half Aiel. Why did Luc have to leave? Would Morgase still have married Tigraine's ex if she hadn't? Thom and Elayne's story arcs would have been completely different without Morgase on the Lion Throne. Was Gitara's Fortelling specific enough for her to know they'd both be needed?
  #19  
Old 06-26-2011, 12:53 PM
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Luc's disappearance is the part that's really interesting to me. Tigraine leaving makes perfect sense. She needs to conceive and deliver the Dragon, who needs to be half Aiel. Why did Luc have to leave? Would Morgase still have married Tigraine's ex if she hadn't? Thom and Elayne's story arcs would have been completely different without Morgase on the Lion Throne. Was Gitara's Fortelling specific enough for her to know they'd both be needed?
This is interesting to me too, as up until the last few books, I had thought that "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" meant Luc would die, as he is Rand's blood relative. But yeah, the newest parts of the prophecies kind of blew that out of the water.
  #20  
Old 06-26-2011, 01:42 PM
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OKay - we've resolved this issue by editing the OP to include Mantear. Now let's talk about things that are actually interesting.
Yeah it was just an idle observation, I didn't expect people to take it and run with it, especially with an obvious answer. Sorry for the distraction in any case.
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This mad eme curious - what exactly do you mean to imply here?
You know, I will just drop that line. Suffice it to say I don't like or trust Bryne. And I will bet tigraine didn't either.
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I'll dig some up - both about Gitara and Tigraine. Ultimately, I always chalked up the single-mindedness of Suian and Moiraine as their hallmark Blue behaviour. As if what they saw happen in the Amyrlin's study was what cemented their desire to be Blue because now they had a quest, a purpose to follow.
Or they wanted to be blue and found the greatest cause ever.
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This is another interesting factor to consider, Luc by all accounts (and admittedly, there are few) was not a Darkfriend when he was younger, and in fact seems to have crossed either during or following his meeting with Isam. Which, in and of itself, is an intersting thing to consider...
Luc always confused me, and I always assumed he was a darkfriend, but but that really raises far more questions than it answers. Maybe if Luc was still around, he could gather support against trakand, and another house would succeed mantear. Of course this seems to imply that Elaida correctly interpreted her first foretelling, as gitara allegedly sent Luc off on a foretelling.
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This though, this fascinates me! Let's get some timeline information confirmed. Younglings, this is an excellent time to point you in the direction of Terez's signature link: go forth and find associated timeline info to shed some light on this issue.

We could speculate that her journey alone (or with a retainer) across the land would have taken significantly longer than that of our Mains, as they had assistance and lots of fast horses, and you know, the Ways. Tigraine had no access to those things, and would have had to make way much more slowly. But does that account for a year or two? We need to narrow this down.
Perhaps she was training, or laying low somewhere. The retainer idea certainly makes sense. One recurring theme is that no hero(ine) stands alone.
Are any of the planned prequels expected to cover this?
And I am opposed to youngling labor lol.
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