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  #1  
Old 07-03-2011, 08:26 AM
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Question Of Wards, Traps, and Invulnerability

I don't have copies of the books with me so bear with me
Something has been irritating me recently about Egwene's wards - or lack of them! - she placed around her rooms during the Big TAR Showdown. She has, from memory, a ward that captures a perosn and hangs them up in the air, and that's it - once trapped, it must be reset. (Am I correct on that?)
Considering it is doubtful someone as bePowered as she would be attacked without a backup, shouldn't she have had a bit more than that?
Could she have done a weave akin to that Moiraine used on her horse in NS, and woven it around her doorknob to stave off non-Traveling attacks? That weave apparently has to be held to be felt - such is suggested in Moi's holding it in NS - so is there a tied-off version that would have worked similarly (as I doubt it was pure Spirit)? Rand has all these whiz-bang wards on pretty much everything he holds dear - all tied off, and not all immediately fatal - so surely the WT has something similar? Could it have been possible to layer the hanging trap so it would capture more than one, if the second was not alerted to it by the maid (or whomever) hanging from the ceiling?
I could go on...
(Speculation: Could not Eg, with her brainful enough Travel-wise to guess the weave, be able to recreate the weave demo'd somewhere (don't know where) by a Forsaken to sense a gateway coming through? (No, I am not referring to the chime (I think it was Moggy and Cyndane?) used to alert the destination you are coming through? Could this be adapted? And how far a leap would it be to recreate a Dreamspike, considering how closely linked Dreaming and Traveling seem to be?)


PS. I like Eg. This is not an Egwene-bashing thread, rather it is a... query as to this... hole/error in judgment.



EDIT: Just saw the Rules thread... if this is moved I know why

Last edited by Lupusdeusest; 07-03-2011 at 08:29 AM.
  #2  
Old 07-03-2011, 10:12 AM
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Bonus question: if Mesaana had actually been caught in that trap, could she have freed herself simply by cutting the weaves?

In defense of Egwene: she most definitely could not trust to anything which was Tower-standard, as the BA had had dozens of centuries to learn how to get around that, even if Mesaana couldn't do that herself. So it was necessary to use something new, just to have some reasonable chance of success.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:02 AM
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One reason why she might not have any other wards is that Wards can interfear with each other. When Rand was first getting lessons from Asmodean and was following the Shaido across the Waste he warded the camp against Shadowspawn. He wanted to ward it against other things but his pov made it clear that he could not. It was something about wards being tenuous things and trying to make it do too many things can cause it to fail and implied was that one can't set up multiple wards each with a slightly different purpose.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:28 AM
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so why not order everyone to stay out of her room and make a human killing ward? her op senses would tell her if shadowspawn got too close, or one of the hundreds of the sisters' would, and would kill mesaana or gray men.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:54 AM
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I thought this was meant to be an Egwene-bashing-free thread. That means you don't get to suggest she might have some common sense, I think.

Then again, she might not want to run the risk of accidentally killing the wrong human, like a Sister bringing a report of yet another Seanchan attack, or something like that. So not wanting to set up an indiscriminate killing zone does make some sense. If she thought this through.
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Old 07-05-2011, 01:18 PM
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so why not order everyone to stay out of her room and make a human killing ward? her op senses would tell her if shadowspawn got too close, or one of the hundreds of the sisters' would, and would kill mesaana or gray men.
she didn't want to kill anyone, she wanted to capture her/them/it and question them to death.
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  #7  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:39 PM
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okay so it knocks them out instead, puts them to sleep like the boobytrapped hedgehog.

she could even question them in tar, where she would likely have an advantage, or in a special pocket of tar where she certainly would.
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
I don't have copies of the books with me so bear with me
Something has been irritating me recently about Egwene's wards - or lack of them! - she placed around her rooms during the Big TAR Showdown. She has, from memory, a ward that captures a perosn and hangs them up in the air, and that's it - once trapped, it must be reset. (Am I correct on that?)
Considering it is doubtful someone as bePowered as she would be attacked without a backup, shouldn't she have had a bit more than that?
IIRC, the ward also tripped off alarms. Discovery would have put the forsaken or any assasin at quite a disadvantage. U think Egwene has done pretty well fir an 18year old. Expecting more would have been unrealistic.
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:55 PM
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Especially considering that Egwene never learned the secret "Ajah-only" weaves, so she may not know how to do things like put people to sleep.
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:23 AM
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IIRC, the ward also tripped off alarms. Discovery would have put the forsaken or any assasin at quite a disadvantage. U think Egwene has done pretty well fir an 18year old. Expecting more would have been unrealistic.
Well, she could have done what a 20 year old did, when he thought he was targeted to be murdered by a Forsaken: put a bunch of guards near enough to, you know, like, actually respond to an attack.

She put all her eggs in one basket, knowing that the egg stealer had centuries of experience in dealing with booby trapped baskets.

And, just for giggles: she did not even ever consider the possibility that more than one Forsaken might be involved, even though she was fully aware that Moghedien was running around free with a very personal grudge against her. And the Spider has a truly towering reputation when it came to sneaky assassinations and such, so assuming that a simple ward will be enough does not seem sensible.

The ward which was put into place was a good first line of defense. But to have it as the only line of defense is not something even an 18 year old should try, unless actually forced to take such a risk.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:14 AM
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Well, she could have done what a 20 year old did, when he thought he was targeted to be murdered by a Forsaken: put a bunch of guards near enough to, you know, like, actually respond to an attack.
Come on Gonzo, this is the chap known as the son of battles. Mat is practically the god of war in RL and you want to compare an 18year old to him and expect her to come out well?

Even avi makes errors of judgement in battle and she was trained in warfare from day one.

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Especially considering that Egwene never learned the secret "Ajah-only" weaves, so she may not know how to do things like put people to sleep.
She's a better channeler than most AS and she's spent less than two years in training, none of that training deals with how to tackle a forsaken. I only said we should have realistic expectations of her not that she's perfect.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:51 AM
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Come on Gonzo, this is the chap known as the son of battles. Mat is practically the god of war in RL and you want to compare an 18year old to him and expect her to come out well?
I would not expect her to be able to handle a complicated combat situation nearly as well as Mat could do. But I would expect her to be able to think things through at least as far as, for instance, Perrin's followers can: if you are being targeted for assassination, then having bodyguards is useful.

Egwene knew that the Sisters who had already been killed had been somewhat paranoid too (as a result of the whole division of the Tower thing, the Seanchan attack, and possibly the previous killings as well), so she should have considered the possibility that one single sleeping woman was not a match for whatever or whoever was doing this killing.
For all she knew, it could even have been a Gholam. I don't think she knew how many were still alive, and I do not think she knew the status of the one that had been after Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve either. If either Mesaana or Moghedien had gained control of it, then that would fully explain the "no channeling was used" feature of all the previous deaths. And it would also mean that any ward or trap she set would be totally useless, unless there were actually people actually watching what was happening.

Egwene chose to believe that a ward would work, and she chose to believe there was only one attacker. Neither belief had any foundation in reality at all. That sort of blindness may be understandable from an inexperience 18 year old, I'll grant you, but she did have some experience already, and she is supposed to be capable enough to actually lead the WT during the most trying time of its existence.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:56 AM
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But I would expect her to be able to think things through at least as far as, for instance, Perrin's followers can: if you are being targeted for assassination, then having bodyguards is useful.

I think that's unfair. She definitely had other weaves prepared and we don't know what other precautions she took to summon help because the trap was sprung prematurely.

If she was baiting Mesaana, then putting too many safeguards in place risked tipping her off. Better this way.

Quote:
For all she knew, it could even have been a Gholam.I don't think she knew how many were still alive,

Is she even aware that there's such a thing as a gholam? Mat didn't think it important enough to let or Rand know about it. If you can't prove she knew about the gholam Gonzo, i'm going to...

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Egwene chose to believe that a ward would work, and she chose to believe there was only one attacker. Neither belief had any foundation in reality at all.
Yes there was. Her dreams.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:17 AM
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But she had already received actual warning that it either was not Mesaana, or not only Mesaana. Gawyn had told her about the male assasssin, hadn't he?
She could not summon help, as she was sleeping too soundly. That's why she slept through, even when Gawyn was screaming his head off right above her own head.
And Mesaana knew that Egwene knew about the BA, so having a bunch of safeguards she noticed would not necessarily have informed Mesaana that Egwene was on to her.

She might or might not know about the gholam. I guess that depends on whether or not Elayne and Nynaeve bothered sharing that piece of rather important information with her. I'm willing to grant the strong likelyhood that she did not know anything about this.

And, considering the fact that there were two different sets of attackers, how trustworthy would you say that her dreams were when it came to deciding whether there was only one single attacker?
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:41 AM
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But she had already received actual warning that it either was not Mesaana, or not only Mesaana. Gawyn had told her about the male assasssin, hadn't he?

No the OP is about the first attack iirc, when Gwayn got caught in Egwene's trap. You're mixing it up with the second attack where Gwayn actually fought the bloodknives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
She might or might not know about the gholam. I guess that depends on whether or not Elayne and Nynaeve bothered sharing that piece of rather important information with her. I'm willing to grant the strong likelyhood that she did not know anything about this.

So you're admitting you're prejudiced? Yipeee! So now you can come to the light.

Or alternately wear a silly hat for the next 365s..


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Originally Posted by Gonzo
And, considering the fact that there were two different sets of attackers, how trustworthy would you say that her dreams were when it came to deciding whether there was only one single attacker?
Not much. That's how prophecy usually works. It never tells you everything. If you know when, you don't know how etc.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:56 PM
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No the OP is about the first attack iirc, when Gwayn got caught in Egwene's trap. You're mixing it up with the second attack where Gwayn actually fought the bloodknives.
Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:39 PM
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However you want to put it, this was just a story instrument to make Gawyn a hero.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:59 PM
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Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.
You know what? you might be right, I thought the description of Gwayn's clown show but I might be wrong. A pity lupus seems to have gone MIA.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:09 PM
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However you want to put it, this was just a story instrument to make Gawyn a hero.
This.

I think it's obvious that she was sadly underprepared, but she is certainly more competent than her precautions suggest. If Gawyn didn't need to be a hero, there would have been something more suitable.

More disturbing is Egwene's arrogance. As Gonzo pointed out, she believes what she wants to believe. Much like Elaida. She has a Talent that gives her a glimpse into the future and makes poor deciscions based on it. Much like Elaida. And she is bound, so what she says is what she believes to be true. Her vehement assertion that the killer was not a Gray man or Darkfriend followed later by the reversal of her position shows exactly how much (and how little) evidence Egwene needs to support her narrative.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:24 PM
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Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.
Yep, that's what I mean Sorry, have been absent for a few days.
 

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