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  #1  
Old 07-08-2011, 07:33 PM
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Default CotW - Elmindreda Farshaw

To recap the concept:

First, pop over here for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

(And remember: a new character of the week does preclude continuing discussion on past topics!)

This week, we'll be discussing: Elmindreda Farshaw

I'll be honest: I've always had a little trouble with Min...she seems a secondary character at best, and yet, occasionally she shows glimmers of greatness.

She nearly always wins the "who would you date" contest (not sure why) but not the "who is the hottest/most beautiful character." She seems, in recent books, to have developed an intellectual appeal as well. Now she's the brainy, cute girl next door (I guess sort of like Felicia Day?).

I'd love to hear a re-hash of the Evil Min (especially for the benefit of the new folks) theory, complete with wacky conspiracy theories, as well as any predictions any and all have for Min. But remember, this isn't about whether you like her or not - it's about what you think of her, and why.

I've always found it mildly strange that she and Rand hit it off, plot notwithstanding. She seems too self-sufficient for the Prince of Mope to like having around. Then again, she does kick his tail into action every once in a while. Is she stupidly loyal? Is she secretly biding her time? Has she figured out how to seal the Bore?

Have at it!
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2011, 03:25 AM
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Yeah, Min is certainly unique in so many ways. Right now the biggest question in mind is why the shadow hasn't tried to "off" her. I mean her insight is certainly dangerous.

She came very close to revealing Taim and her gift might eventually tell Rand her to win the LB. Why kill Fel and leave Min around?

Is the answer Taveren? Or they think she's too stupid to count? (She hasn't exposed any DFs yet) Or are the forsaken simply dismissing her because it didn't exist in their age?
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:59 AM
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I think earlier on in the series when it would have probably been easier to assassinate Min, the Shadow didn't know about her. Or at least, the right characters of the Shadow didn't know about her.

I assume the Shadow has known about Min for awhile now, the last several books or so. That almost certainly includes her ability as well. I'm making this assumption based off the likelihood that one of the main Aiel Wise Ones is a Darkfriend, but enough people know about it by now that it could have leaked out just about anywhere.

However, Min has been pretty much surrounded by characters of the Light during this time, and usually Rand has been right there as well. I don't think the Shadow has really had a chance to assassinate her anytime recently. At worst it would have been nearly impossible to pull off. Also, for most of the Forsaken (other than Moridin), any Gray Men that could have been sent would be better aimed at Rand himself, since he would have been with her.

To sum up, it is my opinion that by the time the Shadow knew about Min and her importance, the opportunities to off her were no longer readily available. Also, any proponents of the Shadow that knew of her before this time either didn't necessarily associate her with Rand and/or possibly wanted to keep her alive in order to use her or learn more about her first.

In my opinion this wasn't so much luck on Min's behalf as it was something that simply made sense. She kept a relatively low profile and had a strong aversion to share her ability and ties with Rand - right up until LoC when she was with him more or less for good. Even then she was wary of sharing her ability with anyone, starting only with Melaine in the beginning.

Considering all of the variables on her side, I don't see it as far-fetched that she hasn't been assassinated yet, or even that no one has seemingly targeted specifically her. The Shadow has an extremely poor network of communication, from the bottom of its ladder all the way to the top, and the Forsaken themselves hardly love to share information with each other. For her to be assassinated, I see it as requiring someone of the Shadow being in the right place at the right time, one of the few that actual knows about her, and probably has also received orders to kill her. Any of the few who possibly have fit the above criteria likely haven't had the CHANCE to kill her, as in any attempts would have been simple suicide with zero chance of success.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:09 AM
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Min is just too cute to be targeted for assassination. Even Lanfear, when she found Rand sleeping in Min's arms, was nice and polite to "that woman".

Quote:
She nearly always wins the "who would you date" contest (not sure why) but not the "who is the hottest/most beautiful character."
-She's easy to get into bed, apparently.
-Elayne comes with oodles of political complications.
-Aviendha is very nearly as mad as Mat's women are.

Lanfear should win the "who would you date a second time" contest, since not dating her a second time would not be a very good idea.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice View Post
In my opinion this wasn't so much luck on Min's behalf as it was something that simply made sense. She kept a relatively low profile and had a strong aversion to share her ability and ties with Rand - right up until LoC when she was with him more or less for good. Even then she was wary of sharing her ability with anyone, starting only with Melaine in the beginning.

Considering all of the variables on her side, I don't see it as far-fetched that she hasn't been assassinated yet, or even that no one has seemingly targeted specifically her. The Shadow has an extremely poor network of communication, from the bottom of its ladder all the way to the top, and the Forsaken themselves hardly love to share information with each other. For her to be assassinated, I see it as requiring someone of the Shadow being in the right place at the right time, one of the few that actual knows about her, and probably has also received orders to kill her. Any of the few who possibly have fit the above criteria likely haven't had the CHANCE to kill her, as in any attempts would have been simple suicide with zero chance of success.
This!


When Greandal used the dove trick in Natrin's Barrow she thought of Min as "Al Thor's dark-haired lover". Nothing more. Semiraghe never mentioned anything about the Shadow wanting Min dead when she captured Rand with the domination band. She just used her to make Rand suffer.
  #6  
Old 07-09-2011, 05:02 AM
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I think Min is hot because RJ described her so in the books.
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Min is just too cute to be targeted for assassination. Even Lanfear, when she found Rand sleeping in Min's arms, was nice and polite to "that woman".

-She's easy to get into bed, apparently.
-Elayne comes with oodles of political complications.
-Aviendha is very nearly as mad as Mat's women are.

Lanfear should win the "who would you date a second time" contest, since not dating her a second time would not be a very good idea.
I'd date Tuon. She seems like my type.
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  #8  
Old 07-09-2011, 06:35 AM
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I think Min gets shortchanged early in the series as to her relevance, by virtue of being one of the cards that RJ had to hold close to the vest. She's a foretelling machine, and he kept a pretty tight lid on Last Battle revelations for quite some time.

I don't find it surprising that she hasn't been in the Shadow's cross hairs. I mean, hell, Sammael had Mat in line of sight, but he thought the Bowl of the Winds cache was more important. I wouldn't bet on Moridin not knowing about Min's ability. He seems to know about all the special abilities that has sprouted in various turnings of the Wheel. Like others have said though, the content has probably not been divulged.

I don't find it strange that Min and Rand hit it off. She seems like the closest to him in upbringing. Baerlon seems to be a large town at best, and while a large town might not be that close to the Two Rivers, its a lot closer than a snooty noble or crazy Aiel.

I don't think RJ wanted us to recognize Min's importance early on, and not to mention, Rand and Min Halimaing it up in the first 150 pages of the first book might have been a little...odd.
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  #9  
Old 07-09-2011, 01:05 PM
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It took me much longer than a minute to figure out what the hell "Halimaing" was. LOL. Well done!

I have difficulty seeing those two "in love". Their relationship is about as solidly based in their first encounters as him and Elayne's (read: not at all). RJ had this bad habit of having people meet once, innocuously, and then be in love with each other from afar. I just didn't buy the sincerity of her feelings for him until LoC.

Also, I still see her as a bit...fishy. I get the fact that RJ/ BS have been parsing out her visions to us, but what the hell has stopped her from sitting down the relevant parties and spilling the beans about everything. It just doesn't logically...
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:17 PM
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It just doesn't logically...
Min is probably White Ajah.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:22 PM
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It took me much longer than a minute to figure out what the hell "Halimaing" was. LOL. Well done!

I have difficulty seeing those two "in love". Their relationship is about as solidly based in their first encounters as him and Elayne's (read: not at all). RJ had this bad habit of having people meet once, innocuously, and then be in love with each other from afar. I just didn't buy the sincerity of her feelings for him until LoC.

Also, I still see her as a bit...fishy. I get the fact that RJ/ BS have been parsing out her visions to us, but what the hell has stopped her from sitting down the relevant parties and spilling the beans about everything. It just doesn't logically...
The Elayne one really pisses me off...I mean, the entire extent of their relationship has been approximately 3.5 days total (3 days in the Stone and maybe 12 hrs combined between his first visit to Camelyn where he falls from the tree and his second where they get it on) One hell of a relationship there.

With Min, I can at least see it. Min sees him for the first time in Baerlon and has a vision that she will fall in love with him. Thus, its a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. She knows it will happen so she accepts it (thus her comments in the Tower that hint she's already in love with him). Then she spends a literal TON of time with him from Lord of Chaos onward...a very good amount before the relationship is consummated. Only Avi can claim a similar amount of time with him and Min & Rand's relationship was far less adversarial than that one. If anything, Min and Rand's romance makes the most sense out of any of the ones in the story...other than perhaps Faile & Perrin (who also have a legitimate courting period, lots of hormones, the lack of other options and the fear of death that pushes them together).

SO, while I agree with the Rand & Elayne comment completely...I disagree on Min & Rand. Hell, Rand was oblivious to her for months before he realized that it wasn't just friendship he felt towards her...and then he was fearful as to the legitimacy of his feelings due to the Taint and his constant battle with possibly going mad.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:42 PM
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Yeah, I have some minor problems with Rand and Min's love story (mostly why she spent months with him in the mountains between TGH and TDR and never made her feeling known to him, which seem out of character), but comparing it to the Rand - Elayne's totally ridiculous one, it's romance for the ages. The series would've been much better if Rand - Elayne was just a brief fling that didn't work out or didn't happen at all. Rand having three lovers happy to share him was one of RJ's worst ideas IMO.

Anyway, the thing I like about Min is that she manages to hold her own in comparison with all the other main characters, despite lacking the useful superpowers or royalty status that the others have. She has the visions, but they pale in comparison to being a powerful channeller or a ta'veren. She's smart, she's funny (her meeting with Gawyn and Galad in TSR, while she was "Elmindreda" in the Tower, is one of the funniest moments in the books) and loyal to her friends. and Rand. Her rise to a master researcher of prophesies is abrupt, but I've accepted it since apparently in the WoT world, being a main character you learn 10 times faster than ordinary humans. And she had to have another role in the beside giving us something to speculate about with the visions, and being Rand's lover.
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Old 07-09-2011, 02:43 PM
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I agree that she could be considered a "master researcher of the prophecies," but that is a very relative thing. She has read a ton of books and material on the subject, which pretty much by default (considering the nature of the subject and the wot world) automatically makes her a master researcher of it.

I don't think it has anything to do with learning 10x faster as a main character. Anyone who put in the time and read what she had read on the subject would be considered a "master" as well. She may get a little help from her visions though, if she is able to connect the two.
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Old 07-09-2011, 02:53 PM
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Maybe making people suddenly and unexpectedly fall in love with you after only a relatively short period of time is a side-effect of being ta'veren? There is precedent, after all.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonai View Post
I don't find it surprising that she hasn't been in the Shadow's cross hairs. I mean, hell, Sammael had Mat in line of sight, but he thought the Bowl of the Winds cache was more important.


We've seen what happens when you have a taveren in your sights - Rand in Fal dara and Perrin in Amadicia. I think getting at Min while she's with Rand will take a lot more than that. Probably someone outside the pattern like Fain.


Quote:
I wouldn't bet on Moridin not knowing about Min's ability. He seems to know about all the special abilities that has sprouted in various turnings of the Wheel.

I think he does. But when? Maybe not before aCoS because he had the perfect opportunity to hit at her while Rand was with Sammael. And the motive. I have no doubt he'd love to cause Rand emotional grief. But then considering what happened to Rahvin... Maybe the motivation is lacking.
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:05 PM
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Or he wanted her death as part of a systematic destruction of all rand cares for to fill him with a despair that sets him to euthanizing the world.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:09 AM
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my big question is, what will happen if Rand survives TG... Do they all live with him? But honestly, I believe Min dies because it would be an interesting twist to the whole, her seeing everyone elses future (not everyone but a lot) but not being able to see her own fate and then her dying
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:47 AM
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I wonder if Min can see visions of herself if she looks in a mirror...
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:17 AM
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If Rand and all three of his women survive the Last Battle and figuratively ride off into the sunset together, Min's lack of channeling ability could make for awkwardness.

For the most part Rand, Aviendha, and Elayne are going to look about the same for a very long time, while Min is going to age and grow old. Not to mention the fact that she will die while the rest will live on.

Providing they all live, in a way the most fair choice would be for Rand and Min to live together exclusively until she dies...then Rand can get on with the rest of his life with Aviendha and Elayne for the next few hundred years. Lol Rand could even use the Mirror of Mists to gradually "age" along with Min. When she grows old, maybe he could be his normal self on Friday nights, so the old bag could feel sexy with the younger man. As soon as she dies - oop, time to transform back and go meet the other two.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:21 AM
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I wonder if Min can see visions of herself if she looks in a mirror...
She probably doesn't have a reflection. Fades don't either, I think.

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Or he wanted her death as part of a systematic destruction of all rand cares for to fill him with a despair that sets him to euthanizing the world.
But he would want Min's death to happen in such a way that Rand blames himself. Having Rand blame Moridin would not help, that would only make Rand want revenge. Then he'd become a Sith Lord instead of a Forsaken, which would only mess up the narrative.
 

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