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Old 07-15-2011, 05:59 AM
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Default Traveling between Parallel worlds and Mirror worlds

There's something that got stuck in my head while re-reading tGH. When Rand, Loial and Hurin are lost in a mirror world and are on their way back, "Selene" says:

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 17 - Choices
"I know what it is," she said firmly, "but I do not know how to use it. You must do what must be done." She traced one symbol, a little larger than the others, with a finger. A triangle standing on its point inside a circle. "This stands for the true world, our world. I believe it will help if you hold it in your mind while you . . . . " She spread her hands as if unsure exactly what it was he was supposed to do.
Later, when the band's reunited and Rand tries to got to a mirror world (which eventually doesn't work, they make the flicker-flicker journey instead), Verin says to Rand's question:

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
"But I don't know anything. " He led his horse around the Stone, looking it up and down. "The one thing I remember is the symbol for our world. Selene showed me, but I don't see it here."
"Of course not. Not on a Stone in our world; the symbols are aids in getting to a world." She shook her head. "What would I not give to talk with this girl of yours? Or better, to put my hands on her book. It is generally thought that no copy of Mirrors of the Wheel survived the Breaking whole. Serafelle always tells me there are more books that we believe lost than I could credit waiting to be found. Well, no use in worrying over what I don't know. I do know some things. The symbols on the top half of the Stone stand for worlds. Not all the Worlds That Might Be, of course. Apparently, not every Stone connects to every world, and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends believed that there were possible worlds no Stones at all touched. Do you see nothing that sparks a memory?"
On the other hand, when Mat, Thom and Noal are entering the Tower of Ghenjei, they use a triangle, point down and a wavy line through it:

Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 53 - Gateways
The three men stepped up to the tower. It did not appear to have a single opening anywhere on its two-hundred-foot-tall height. Not a window, not a seam, not a scratch. Mat looked up, feeling disoriented as he stared along its gleaming length toward the distant gray sky. Did the tower reflect too much light? He shuddered and turned to Thom. Mat gave a single nod. Hesitating only briefly, Thom slid a bronze knife from its sheath on his belt and stepped over to set the tip against the tower. He grimly slid the knife in the shape of a triangle, about a palm wide, point down. Metal scraped against metal, but left no trail. Thom finished by making a wavy line through the center, as one did at the start of any game of Snakes and Foxes.
but then, when they're EXITING the Tower, you would think that Mat would have to make the sign for Randland (downward triangle within a circle) but no:

Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 55 - The One Left Behind
Mat spun the ashandarei and thrust it into the wall. The point sank into the not-stone. Light sprayed out around it, spilling free like blood gushing from a split vein. Mat screamed, ramming it in farther. Powerful waves of light erupted from the wall. He drew the ashandarei down at an angle, making a slit. He pulled the weapon up the other side, cutting out a large inverse triangle of light. The light seemed to thrum as it washed across him. The Aelfinn had reached the doorway by Thom, but they hissed, shying back from the powerful radiance.
Mat finished by drawing a wavy line down the middle of the triangle. He could barely see, the light was so bright. The section of the wall in front of him fell away, revealing a glowing white passage that seemed to be cut out of steel. "Well I'll . . ." Thom whispered, standing up. The Aelfinn screamed with high-pitched anger. They entered the room, arms raised to shield their eyes, wicked swords gripped in opposing hands. "Get her out!" Mat bellowed, spinning to face the creatures. He lifted the ashandarei, using the butt end to smash the face of the first Aelfinn. "Go!" Thom grabbed Moiraine, then spared a glance at Mat. "Go!" Mat repeated, smashing the arm of another Aelfinn.

Now, the portals to the Finn worlds are not exactly the same as the Portal Stones to mirror worlds, because the Finn worlds are parallel rather than mirror worlds:
Quote:
Date: 2005-09-04 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Tamyrlin
Q: do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?
A: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.
at the same time the BWB directly contradicts this:
Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.
rather obviously, I'm going to take RJ's word for it.

There are 3 ways into the 'Finn world that I can recall: 2 "doorways" and the Tower of Ghenjei where the way had to be opened first.

While moving between mirror worlds, it's imperative to know the symbol of the world you're going to, moving between parallel worlds (at least the ones we've seen) seems to be more a question of using the same way in as out. it seems a bit dodgy to me but there's not really enough information to say that the scene of coming out of Ghenjei had a mistake in it.

on a slightly different tack:
According to Verin's explanation to Egwene in tDR, all the worlds, both Mirror and Parallel are connected by T'A'R:
Quote:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. "Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation. Many people - ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel'aran'rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel'aran'rhiod."
now, when Egwene teaches herself to Travel, she first goes through to T'A'R *in the flesh* which horrifies the Wise Ones.

Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world? It ought to be possible to Travel directly between mirror worlds, however knowing exactly where you're going to is imperative when Traveling which would make it much harder to go to a world you've never been to before. On the other hand, maybe that's exactly why it's so important to know both where you're coming from and going to, otherwise you might end up in a mirror world? Although, I suspect it might take an overkill of OP to open a portal to a mirror world by accident. As for Parallel worlds... much tricksier. I think you'd have to know precisely where to cross as well as how.

A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?
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Last edited by yks 6nnetu hing; 07-15-2011 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?
Excellent topic yks! How exciting!

I have to mull over most of it, as my knee-jerk reaction is to say that the xit from Ghelji was as much literary balance as it was different than it should have been. Clearly not enough, therefore I mull.

BUT, the glossary leads me to believe that they inhabit the same parallel world:

Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Aelfinn: A race of beings, largely human in appearance but with snakelike characteristics, who will give true answers to three questions. Whatever the question, their answers are always correct, if frequently given in forms that are not clear, but questions concerning the Shadow can be extremely dangerous. Their true location is unknown, but they can be visited by passing through a ter'angreal, once a possession of Mayene but in recent years held in the Stone of Tear. They can also be reached by entering the Tower of Ghenjei. They speak the Old Tongue, mention treaties and agreements, and ask if those entering carry iron, instruments of music, or devices that can make fire. See also Eelfinn, Snakes and Foxes.
and
Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Eelfinn: A race of beings, largely human in appearance but with fox-like characteristics, who will grant three wishes, although they ask for a price in return. If the person asking does not negotiate a price, the Eelfinn choose it. The most common price in such circumstances is death, but they still fulfill their part of the bargain, although the manner in which they fulfill it is seldom the manner the one asking expects. Their true location is unknown, but it was possible to visit them by means of a ter'angreal that was located in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal was taken by Moiraine Damodred to Cairhien, where it was destroyed. They may also be reached by entering the Tower of Ghenjei. They ask the same questions as the Aelfinn regarding fire, iron, and musical instruments. See also Aelfinn, Snakes and Foxes.
Plus:

Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 22 - The End of a Legend
He wished he knew more about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and their bloody tower.
Quote:
The treaties won't be in effect, so the Aelfinn and Eelfinn can draw blood. Normally, you only have to worry about tricks with pits or ropes, since they can't. . . ." ... "If you go in the other way, they'll probably try that as well. Shedding blood in their kingdom can have strange effects. They'll try to break your bones with a fall or drug you to sleep. And they will win, Mat. It's their world."
Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 22 - The End of a Legend
"The tower isn't a place, it's a portal. A kind of gate to the crossroads between their realms. You'll find both of them there, Aelfinn snakes and Eelfinn foxes. Assuming they're working together currently. They have a strange relationship."
So, I basically just exhausted the search engine. LOL. BUT, it seems to work both ways yks. Yes, they inhabit the same world, but the Tower is also a portal(stone?) to other parallel worlds?

The other piece I found to be particularly interesting was the bit I italicized regaing shedding blood. They were the ones to shed blood - Mat's blood. I wonder what effect that had on the events that proceeded?
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Last edited by Ishara; 07-15-2011 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:34 AM
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I'm intrigued by the use of the word "realm" it really doesn't specify enough to define parallel or mirror worlds. But, I think they're mirror worlds of each other in some way so that the Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland?

in which case, another question arises: how come it's possible to enter that particular portal from Randland? Is it because the world of the 'Finns has a special affinity to Randland or is it because the 'Finns can have access to more parallel worlds? perhaps even any parallel world?
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:57 AM
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Hold on, do you mean that you think that the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn each occupy their own parallel worlds, but both within the Tower?

While I agree that realm is not nearly exact enough to determine the answer, I'd say that RJ's interview response allows us to safely say that the Tower and the world(s) that the *Finn reside in are parallel worlds, and NOT mirror worlds.

I'd change the logical reasoning from:

Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland

to:

Tower of Ghenjei is to the *Finns as a Portal Stone is to Mirror Worlds (including Randland).

I wonder about the ability of the *Finn to access other parallel worlds, but don't think that they can access Mirror Worlds. Does that make sense?
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
I'm intrigued by the use of the word "realm" it really doesn't specify enough to define parallel or mirror worlds. But, I think they're mirror worlds of each other in some way so that the Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland?
No, the Aelfinn and Eelfinn inhabit separate parallel worlds. The Tower of Ghenjei is what Birgitte described - a crossroads between the two worlds. Maria confirmed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS
Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Okay, so yeah this is the question I'll ask, you make a good point. Are there worlds and dimensions that exist outside of the Pattern?

Brandon: Ok, see that's the question you should be asking. I mean, you should be asking it, but it doesn't mean I'm going to answer it. [laughter] But that's at the core of the question. I'm going to discuss it without giving you the answer. I like to do this because I think it frames the question without giving you too much information that I have that I don't think is appropriate to share right now. Extrapolations of this question get us to: is there one Dragon for all different Parallels or are they all different Dragons? Traveling through the Portal Stone seems to indicate that there are many different lives Rand could have led. The same thing happens with several of the ter'angreal that people go through. The question then is, are those all separate universes? Do we have a multiverse sort of concept? Or are they possibilities? And do these worlds all exist, or could exist...what is the difference? In some of those Rand failed. So, is Rand the Dragon in all of them, or is Rand not the Dragon in some of them? What happens in the ones where Rand failed? Are they real worlds? Are those different worlds where there is a different Dark One who then takes over and destroys that world? Or maybe not, maybe he makes it as he wishes. Or are those just possibilities, reflections of this world that don't really exist except when we touch them? Those are all very good questions. Robert Jordan said that Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the 'Finns is something different…

Matt: He called it a parallel world.

Brandon: Yes, the parallel world, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting.

Maria clarifies:
[Maria: I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The 'finn worlds are parallel worlds, the Ogier world is a parallel world. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by yks
in which case, another question arises: how come it's possible to enter that particular portal from Randland? Is it because the world of the 'Finns has a special affinity to Randland or is it because the 'Finns can have access to more parallel worlds? perhaps even any parallel world?
We have no indication that the Finns have access to any other parallel worlds. However, there are clearly other methods that can be used to access parallel worlds. The Ogier world is a parallel world, and we know that the Ogier can return there by opening their Book of Translation. So this must be another means of accessing a parallel world - or perhaps it's comparable to the Tower of Ghenjei, except that the Ogier world 'portal' is in a different form than a big silver Tower or redstone doorframe.
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:21 AM
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Cyndane said that the Ael'finn and Eel'finn held her, not just one of them. And Mat & Co. encounter both in various forms on their journey.

I think they inhabit the same parallel world, but just not the same parts of it. The Tower is like the meeting place. As for its affinity to our world, no idea. I'm going to guess that somewhere back in the day the Aes Sedai made an incursion into their world, and there was some kind of battle. The incursion is the Tower (perhaps built by someone named Ghenji), and the end of the battle resulted in the treat(ies).

I'm not sure you can really make an analogy between Portal Stones and the Tower. But maybe. I'm curious if there are other parallel worlds with other methods of access.
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
on a slightly different tack:
According to Verin's explanation to Egwene in tDR, all the worlds, both Mirror and Parallel are connected by T'A'R:


now, when Egwene teaches herself to Travel, she first goes through to T'A'R *in the flesh* which horrifies the Wise Ones.

Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world? It ought to be possible to Travel directly between mirror worlds, however knowing exactly where you're going to is imperative when Traveling which would make it much harder to go to a world you've never been to before. On the other hand, maybe that's exactly why it's so important to know both where you're coming from and going to, otherwise you might end up in a mirror world? Although, I suspect it might take an overkill of OP to open a portal to a mirror world by accident. As for Parallel worlds... much tricksier. I think you'd have to know precisely where to cross as well as how.

A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?
But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all? Here is RJ's comment on the connection between T'A'R and Ghenjei:

Quote:
A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?
RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).
More RJ:

Quote:
WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?
Jordan: No.


Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?
Jordan: Yes.
Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?
Jordan: No, they are different.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?
Jordan: Possibly.

Tamyrlin: Did Lanfear get the opportunity to ask the 'Finns, to make a wish, after going through the doorway with Moiraine?
Jordan: Read and find out.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well, then did Moiraine get the opportunity to make a wish?
Jordan: Read and find out.
T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding. But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
Cyndane said that the Ael'finn and Eel'finn held her, not just one of them. And Mat & Co. encounter both in various forms on their journey.

I think they inhabit the same parallel world, but just not the same parts of it. The Tower is like the meeting place. As for its affinity to our world, no idea. I'm going to guess that somewhere back in the day the Aes Sedai made an incursion into their world, and there was some kind of battle. The incursion is the Tower (perhaps built by someone named Ghenji), and the end of the battle resulted in the treat(ies).
Sorry Crispy, but did you read Maria's quote that I included in my post above? She said that the Finn worlds are parallel worlds - plural.

And Cyndane was able to be held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn simply because the Finns have access to each other's worlds via the crossroads of the Tower of Ghenjei.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispy
I'm not sure you can really make an analogy between Portal Stones and the Tower. But maybe. I'm curious if there are other parallel worlds with other methods of access.
See my post above regarding the Ogier world. It is also a parallel world and can be accessed by the Book of Translation.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
Sorry Crispy, but did you read Maria's quote that I included in my post above? She said that the Finn worlds are parallel worlds - plural.

And Cyndane was able to be held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn simply because the Finns have access to each other's worlds via the crossroads of the Tower of Ghenjei.
Nope, finished my post before I saw yours. If this is true--that they inhabit separate parallel worlds--it's interesting that no ritual is required to move from one to the other.


Quote:
See my post above regarding the Ogier world. It is also a parallel world and can be accessed by the Book of Translation.
Nice. Thanks.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all? Here is RJ's comment on the connection between T'A'R and Ghenjei:

T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding.
But that doesn't quite jive with Birgitte's warning to Perrin in TSR:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow Rising: 28 - "To The Tower of Ghenji"
"No, archer." She laughed. "I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a Bannerman's courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness."
She definitely implies that you can get to and from the Tower in Tel'aran'rhiod. Of course, maybe this is what RJ meant--it's almost impossible to get in or out from there. But this seems to preclude the idea that it is completely inaccessible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon
But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.
Interesting. So you're suggesting that Tel'aran'rhiod is not really the third constant, but rather that each parallel world has its own Dream World. I'll have to look, but I could swear RJ once said that Ogier don't dream into Tel'aran'rhiod. I guess he could have been very specific.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
But that doesn't quite jive with Birgitte's warning to Perrin in TSR:

She definitely implies that you can get to and from the Tower in Tel'aran'rhiod. Of course, maybe this is what RJ meant--it's almost impossible to get in or out from there. But this seems to preclude the idea that it is completely inaccessible.





Interesting. So you're suggesting that Tel'aran'rhiod is not really the third constant, but rather that each parallel world has its own Dream World. I'll have to look, but I could swear RJ once said that Ogier don't dream into Tel'aran'rhiod. I guess he could have been very specific.
Ghenjei might be a bit of an exception in of itself, in that it is a conduit that links wotland to the parallel lands of the finns. It might be said to thus exist, at least partially, in both of these parallels, but so tenuously that reaching T'A'R is nigh impossible from it.

Concerning whether T'A'R is really the so-called "third constant", think of it this way. T'A'R certainly seems a mirror-like reflection of the world through which you entered it, but does that make it a constant? What if Rand had entered T'A'R while in the Mirror World in tGH. Would he have entered the same T'A'R that can be entered from the normal world, or would it have been different as a consequence of it being a reflection of the world that he was presently in? And if it was a "constant", then couldn't he have entered T'A'R in the flesh in the Mirror World, and then stepped back out of T'A'R back into his own world?
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:55 PM
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Default Ah - a topic I enjoy.

First, yes, it would appear that the Tower of Ghenjei is some sort of portal between two parallel Worlds, Aelfland and Eefland (as Marie pointed out regarding the quote and with other evidence from how RJ refers to the worlds separately). Recall, Parallel Worlds are simply other Worlds, let's not complicate them at all. Other worlds in other universes, same Universe, doesn't really matter, they are other Worlds. The idea that there are two Parallel Worlds that are close to each other that would enable easier travel than others seems mundane, but I do like the looking at the Tower as analogous to Portal Stones. In fact, it's not a stretch to suggest that the Portal Stones and there mechanisms provided inspiration for the development of the Tower of Ghenjei and the redstone Ter'angreal doorways.

As to Birgitte and RJ, the quotes do not create a problem. RJ specified Aelfland in his answer, where Birgitte is speaking about entering the Tower of Ghenjei, the crossroad between both worlds. In fact, I'm pretty sure RJ mentioned that it was similar to what we see with a stedding.

Quote:
But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all?
Yes, T'A'R is connected to Parallel Worlds. It surrounds all worlds. There are specific cases where there are "bubbles" if you will where such reflections cannot be entered (think Rhuidean), such "bubbles" either created by a "man" or generated by the Wheel, and apparently Aelfland is shielded in some way.

Quote:
Concerning whether T'A'R is really the so-called "third constant", think of it this way. T'A'R certainly seems a mirror-like reflection of the world through which you entered it, but does that make it a constant? What if Rand had entered T'A'R while in the Mirror World in tGH. Would he have entered the same T'A'R that can be entered from the normal world, or would it have been different as a consequence of it being a reflection of the world that he was presently in? And if it was a "constant", then couldn't he have entered T'A'R in the flesh in the Mirror World, and then stepped back out of T'A'R back into his own world?
Yes - Mirror Worlds have TAR reflections. If Rand had entered TAR while in that Mirror World he would have entered the reflection of that Mirror World. And yes, he could have done that if he had known how to use TAR/MirrorWorld/Real World travel. I doubt it is easy or simple in any fashion to use TAR travel between reflections, but it seems apparent that it can be done considering the existence of Portal Stones connecting the worlds of if created by those that knew the numbers of chaos. The GOI is another plausible starting point for the development of the Portal Stones too.

From all of my discussions on this topic, our study still stands the test of time, although it needs updating (http://www.theoryland.com/studies.php?page=unseenworld). I spoke with the 4th Age Podcast about TAR in episodes 99 and 100 if I recall correctly...I need to go back and listen to them because I recall some ideas coming out that I wanted to pursue.

Oh, one last note about the Seanchan animals. Here is the manner in which Portal Stones were used (imho) to acquire the animals while working within the framework provided by the canon we have so far uncovered.

Our World -> Use Portal Stone
Portal Stone -> Mirror World of a Parallel World
Mirror World of a Parallel World -> Use Portal Stone
Portal Stone -> Parallel World

(I wonder if there is some power constraint that makes it impossible to do a 'Our World' to 'Parallel World' direct travel through Portal Stones...seems an odd constraint...although maybe it's a constraint of the Pattern and Laws of Traveling, considering whatever Rand did while with Verin forced them through thousands of Mirror World variations on their lives...which is also a fun topic to discuss and makes you wonder if Portal Stones were also studied when developing the Testing Ter'angreal used by the White Tower.)

And then they returned the same way. Remember, Portal Stones connect to Mirror Worlds BUT they can be used, once in a Mirror World to travel to a Real World as long as the symbol of that world is known, as Rand demonstrated by traveling back to our World from the Mirror World Portal Stone. So, the BWB is correct and so is RJ.

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Old 07-15-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding. But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.
I don't think so. We have quotes to the contrary, and Verin had no reason to lie at that point, about those sets of facts.

It may confuse the issue, but think of TAR as a big mirror. The world it reflects may change (as you access it from different Mirror Wolds), but the fact that it is being reflected does not change. TAR is the constant, the world it reflects is what changes.

ETA: Also, stedding are not parallel worlds, just captured in those bubbles" that TAR cannot touch. HUGE distinction.
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  #14  
Old 07-15-2011, 03:05 PM
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I don't think so. We have quotes to the contrary, and Verin had no reason to lie at that point, about those sets of facts.

It may confuse the isse, but think of TAR as a big mirror. The world it reflects may change (as you access it from different Mirror Wolds), but the fact that it is being reflected does not change. TAR is the constant, the world it reflects is what changes.
Yes, calling it a mirror is confusing. I think if more like memory foam. The world sits on a giant mattress made of memory foam, and the longer anything in that world stays in one place, the stronger the impression made.

Tam has a lot of definitive answers in his post, but doesn't back any of them up with quotes. I'm not 100% convinced on some of it, e.g. that Tel'aran'rhiod reflects the Mirror Worlds as well. I think the Mirror Worlds are not truly real, but exist as potentialities. I could be way off, though.
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:48 PM
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I think the Mirror Worlds are not truly real, but exist as potentialities. I could be way off, though
Why not both? "What is real is not real." The worlds do not contribute to the War of Power, or anything important (the DO can't escape there, the Dragon can't seal him there), and everything that exists is directly dependent on the true world. But if you go there, you can really get killed, really live off the food and water. Unlike T'A'R.

And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.

And I love this topic, one of my long shot theories was that perrin leads the wolves in an interworld strike force via T'A'R.

Maybe the bargain the aes sedai had with the finn demands randland's channelers' aid when the DO is nearly loose in their world. In any case, the tower and the stones seem to have been 'built' so the symbols and stones have no need to work the same way as the tower.

one thought: the 'snakey square' represents the (with an obvious wish for another word) intersection of the two worlds, men see the finn as snakes and foxes, and perhaps the design indicates to the finn in some way the nature of their dealings.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:42 PM
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Why not both? "What is real is not real." The worlds do not contribute to the War of Power, or anything important (the DO can't escape there, the Dragon can't seal him there), and everything that exists is directly dependent on the true world. But if you go there, you can really get killed, really live off the food and water. Unlike T'A'R.
Yeah, that's possible. I have no proof for my speculation either, but I've always enjoyed the idea that the Mirror Worlds are the Wheel's method of predicting the best possible outcome. It's fine if they're just splinter worlds generated as a result of decisions, events, etc., but I like the idea that they're simulations and have an impact on prophecy, Dreaming, and Min's viewings.

Quote:
And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.
I agree. He merely added another layer without explaining the jump. That is, why would you be able to Portal Stone jump to a Mirror of a Parallel? It requires that the Mirror Worlds have an additional layer of accessibility. It's certainly possible, but I don't see much evidence for it.

Quote:
And I love this topic, one of my long shot theories was that perrin leads the wolves in an interworld strike force via T'A'R.
Long shot? I'd say it's damn near guaranteed. Or at least, that's been my impression for years and years.

Quote:
Maybe the bargain the aes sedai had with the finn demands randland's channelers' aid when the DO is nearly loose in their world. In any case, the tower and the stones seem to have been 'built' so the symbols and stones have no need to work the same way as the tower.
Not sure about this. I think the only treaty is the one that governs the use of the Doorways. The *finn get to feed on memories, experience, and ta'veren energy, whilst answering questions/fulfilling requests of those generating their food.

I will say that I don't like all the references to the DO/Shadow etc. being especially salient to the *finn. Why is that? Are they going to play some role in the Last Battle? What is the relationship?
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:00 PM
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And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.
I tend to believe this myself. The BWB was written from RJ's notes but not with any real input from RJ himself, so if the notes said that grolm, etc were brought to the prime world by Portal Stones, there's no reason to believe Teresa Patterson would know that Portal Stones are supposed to go to mirror worlds and not parallel worlds.
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:32 PM
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Default Not too many jumps. Ok, let's tackle Grolm.

Quote:
And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
I agree. He merely added another layer without explaining the jump. That is, why would you be able to Portal Stone jump to a Mirror of a Parallel? It requires that the Mirror Worlds have an additional layer of accessibility. It's certainly possible, but I don't see much evidence for it.
Me? Make a jump? Of course! It's a theory, but I haven't heard a better one, so I'm running with it for now. I'm sure we'll get all of the support for my theory out before this discussion is done.

However, first, I'd like to dispute this notion that Grolm came from a Mirror World. So, answer me this, what world was the Mirror World reflecting where the Grolm were found since Grolm are not native to Randland?

Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.
Note: My second dispute will be that Mirror Worlds are not inhabited by "real" people nor "real animals" and that inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (although with the Pattern breaking down, showing up as Ghosts and such in the Real World and other oddities can occur...stupid Pattern breaking down!) But let's deal with the first dispute...well, first.

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Old 07-15-2011, 06:39 PM
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Not sure about this. I think the only treaty is the one that governs the use of the Doorways. The *finn get to feed on memories, experience, and ta'veren energy, whilst answering questions/fulfilling requests of those generating their food.

I will say that I don't like all the references to the DO/Shadow etc. being especially salient to the *finn. Why is that? Are they going to play some role in the Last Battle? What is the relationship?
I don't think it is salient. Birgette's pretty clear that while mentioning the DO in *Finnland is bad, their method of interpreting good/ evil is simply very different than ours. It's like imposing our own cultural mores on others from different backgrounds. Doesn't necessarily jive.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:07 PM
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Me? Make a jump? Of course! It's a theory, but I haven't heard a better one, so I'm running with it for now. I'm sure we'll get all of the support for my theory out before this discussion is done.

However, first, I'd like to dispute this notion that Grolm came from a Mirror World. So, answer me this, what world was the Mirror World reflecting where the Grolm were found since Grolm are not native to Randland?



Note: My second dispute will be that Mirror Worlds are not inhabited by "real" people nor "real animals" and that inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (although with the Pattern breaking down, showing up as Ghosts and such in the Real World and other oddities can occur...stupid Pattern breaking down!) But let's deal with the first dispute...well, first.
There were grolm in the mirror world that Rand, Loial, and Hurin visited. In that iteration of history Hawkwing lost the great battle against the Trollocs, so he never sent his son across the ocean to conquer the other continent, yet grolm nevertheless ended up on the mainland despite the lack of Seanchan to bring them across. While it's impossible to say for sure how they got there without inside information from Maria or Brandon, it could be that exotic creatures coming across from parallel worlds is one of the events that only manifests in some probabilities, so some mirror worlds would have them and some would not depending on their precise location along the lines of "if."
 

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