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  #1  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:05 PM
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Default CotW - Lord Dobraine of House Taborwin

To recap the concept:

First, pop over here for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

(And remember: a new character of the week does preclude continuing discussion on past topics!)

This week, we'll be discussing: Lord Dobraine of House Taborwin.

Dobraine is the highest ranking lord in Cairhien, and High Seat of House Taborwin. He's a seasoned veteran of both the Sun Court's intrigues and battles in the field.

We know that after Colavere was left alone to contemplate her future, Dobraine was left alone with her at the last. I wonder what he said to her, and if that had any impact on her decision to kill herself? What we do know for sure is that he lead the Cairhienin nobles in swearing fealty to Rand in the Sun Palace, thus handing him his first nation.

When Rand was kidnapped, Dobraine not only lead the Cairhienin army in the battle at Dumai's Wells, but he was also integral in the rescue planning. Duty? Obligation? Prudence?

Rand (as he does) flip flops between thinking that Dobraine is the only one of the nobles that might actually be loyal to him and thinking that he's insincere and insisting that he not gain too much power in any one place.

Since his introduction, no other noble has worked for Rand as much or as successfully as Dobraine. First he was made Steward, and then Regent in Cairhien, then he was assigned the impossible task of securing Bandar Eban, and then perhaps a victim of his own success, Rand sent him to Tear.

Admittedly, I don't see much intrigue to Dobraine. Aside from his place of birth, he strikes me a steadfast, loyal and acutely intelligent leader who is willing to do what must be done to effect his Lord's commands. He seems to be faithful, and in fact I would argue that he's never given us a reason to consider him not to be. While clearly frustrated that he's not allowed to complete a task, or do a job to his best efforts (namely rebuild and command Cairhien), he accedes to Rand's commands.

The one issue worth discussing that I can think of is the attack on Dobraine in the Prologue of Crown of Thorns. We assume the Shadow? But conspirators? Why? It is linked to the attack on Bashere's tent. For the Seals?

Just a reminder, these are my own musings on the character - you're free to bring up your own, these are simply meant to get the discussion rolling.
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  #2  
Old 08-06-2011, 01:20 AM
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Default Could Dobraine be the successor to the temporal power of the Dragon?

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Quote:
RJ: The first inspiration was the thought of what it was really like to be tapped as the savior of mankind. In a lot of books that have somebody who is the "chosen one" if you will, it seems that the world quickly divides into allies who are strongly behind the "chosen one" and the evil guys. It seemed to me that if somebody is chosen to be the savior, there is going to be a good bit of resistance, both "Let this cup pass from me," and a lot of people who aren't going to be that happy to have a savior show up, even if they are on his side nominally. That established, I began to think about the world.
A recurring theme of the books is that no one character, however powerful, can do it all. Dobraine's importance is confirmed by Min:
Quote:
“You have to do something,” Min muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts. “Logain’s aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever. Maybe he still thinks he’s the real Dragon Reborn. And there’s something . . . dark . . . in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies . . . I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover.”
His loyalty is shown time and time again, and is reinforced with his con.
Consider:

The white represents purity, peace, and sincerity, while the blue represents truth and loyalty. Fitting, considering Dobraine's nature. Absolutely loyal, and almost free of ambition. It even calls to mind Perrin's thoughts on leadership. He is the ideal leader of the Fourth Age: approved by the Dragon, just, and noble.

Consider the following from heraldry:

These scales, representing justice, are remarkably similar to the con of Dobraine.

Rand has already begun to cede power to Dobraine. He had final say over Darlin's appointment, and grants Idrien Tarsin the means to provide a legacy of the Dragon.

Dobraine is a necessary agent of the Will of the Pattern, he is essentially the shambayan of the world. His willingness to put his faith in the Pattern and its Champion set his path, and his (rare) competence allows him to walk it.
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Old 08-06-2011, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post

Since his introduction, no other noble has worked for Rand as much or as successfully as Dobraine. First he was made Steward, and then Regent in Cairhien, then he was assigned the impossible task of securing Bandar Eban, and then perhaps a victim of his own success, Rand sent him to Tear.

Admittedly, I don't see much intrigue to Dobraine. Aside from his place of birth, he strikes me a steadfast, loyal and acutely intelligent leader who is willing to do what must be done to effect his Lord's commands. He seems to be faithful, and in fact I would argue that he's never given us a reason to consider him not to be. While clearly frustrated that he's not allowed to complete a task, or do a job to his best efforts (namely rebuild and command Cairhien), he accedes to Rand's commands.
This!
It's good for a change to see someone other than the Aiel and the main young heroes working for Rand. And doing that out of duty and loyalty, not for some complicated schemes(although Dobraine being from Caihrien you never know).

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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post

The one issue worth discussing that I can think of is the attack on Dobraine in the Prologue of Crown of Thorns. We assume the Shadow? But conspirators? Why? Is it linked to the attack on Bashere's tent later on in the series?

Just a reminder, these are my own musings on the character - you're free to bring up your own, these are simply meant to get the discussion rolling.
You got me confused or you're confusing the books. The only attack on Dobraine happened in the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight and it's definitely linked with the attack on Bashere's tent. They happen on the same day or within a few days of each other. The style is the same - the attackers have a note with a perfect copy of Bashere's and Dobraine's writing and sigil. And if the target really were the seals, that only proves Dobraine's loyalty. Even Rand's enemies think of him as a faithful and loyal follower.

The only concern is the style. If the targets were the seals and if a Forsaken is behind them why choosing some thugs? Why not Grey man who will be far more successful?
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:56 PM
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This!
You got me confused or you're confusing the books. The only attack on Dobraine happened in the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight and it's definitely linked with the attack on Bashere's tent. They happen on the same day or within a few days of each other. The style is the same - the attackers have a note with a perfect copy of Bashere's and Dobraine's writing and sigil. And if the target really were the seals, that only proves Dobraine's loyalty. Even Rand's enemies think of him as a faithful and loyal follower.

The only concern is the style. If the targets were the seals and if a Forsaken is behind them why choosing some thugs? Why not Grey man who will be far more successful?
Thanks for clarifying - I was writing this stuff up off the top of my head! But yeah, who? And for the Seals? Because if Rand is right, then the Shadow should want them safe and sound and hidden, no?
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:02 PM
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Moridin's complacency about the seals in KOD suggests that he knows what Rand will do and supports it. The other Forsaken don't seem to share this view, so likely Moridin knows something they don't.
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:19 PM
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There is also my theory that it depends on the time (and perhaps what precisely has or hasn't happened by then) whether the DO wants the seals broken yet, or would prefer to have that happen later.
I think that the DO can gain an advantage from having a seal break at the right time, so for him, having them break at another time is something to be avoided.

If I'm right, then shortly after the attacks on Bashere and Dobraine was such a "right time". While when Taim presented his seal to Rand was a wrong time for breaking it.

I also think that is why Rand will have to break the seals during or right after his meeting at the Field of Merrilor. If he waits too long, the DO will break them, and gain a big advantage from that. Testing this theory is a bit tricky, of course. How many control universes would I need, and where do I find 100 identical Dark Ones?
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:26 PM
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Let's not forget about the guys who were after Domon in TGH.
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2011, 06:49 PM
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The only thing that bothers me about Dobraine is that he is Cairheinian and the game makes them trustworthy until the decide not to be trustworthy anymore. I'm still undecided on him. Maybe as I get farther along in my re-read my feelings will change. For right now, I don't trust him.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:26 PM
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Exactly Taer. I like him, but I don't trust him. And I feel like a jerk for feeling that way since he's never given us any reason, behind his nationality, to feel that way. It's all a wait and see kind of game at this point...
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:49 AM
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It's hard to distrust someone that Loial likes so much. Especially someone who is clearly not a Darkfriend (or else the attack wouldn't have been necessary). One thing interesting that I don't think has been mentioned...Dobraine's...sister? Cousin? Is Breane Taborwin, Morgase's lady-in-waiting and Lamgwin's girl. She was one of the ones who flirted with Rand at Barthanes' house, and specifically, she was the older, more experienced one who pushed all of the younger ones aside. Thom commented on her reputation.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:04 AM
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LOL - I thought about mentioning that, but figured she's a pretty open book too. I don't think she'd be his sister though. He's far too loyal to just let his sister disappear and end up some penniless strongarm's gal.

Do we think she wanted to escape the confines of Cairhien society, or that she got caught up and lost everything? I favour the latter, given her attitude now.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:35 AM
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My take is that since Dobraine rhymes with Moiraine, he must be a good guy. :P

Really though, he sorta slipped my mind in that I really didn't find him that important. Although thinking back, I agree with sentiments here. I like guy but am a bit distrustful because he is from where he is. Then again, he could be the exception to the rule. Meaning he's the one guy who doesn't like all those house games for power etc.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:09 PM
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My take is that since Dobraine rhymes with Moiraine, he must be a good guy. :P

Really though, he sorta slipped my mind in that I really didn't find him that important. Although thinking back, I agree with sentiments here. I like guy but am a bit distrustful because he is from where he is. Then again, he could be the exception to the rule. Meaning he's the one guy who doesn't like all those house games for power etc.
*Cough*Talmanes*Cough*
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:14 PM
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Do we think she wanted to escape the confines of Cairhien society, or that she got caught up and lost everything? I favour the latter, given her attitude now.
I suspect ta'veren had something to do with it, but that's not very helpful, is it? They could be siblings, with bad blood. Hard to say.

As for Talmanes, he's a pretty typical noble, despite being caught up with Mat. He was almost as bad as Nalesean in insisting that Mat have the proper frills, and in insisting that the commanders of the Band be nobles.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:18 PM
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As for Talmanes, he's a pretty typical noble, despite being caught up with Mat. He was almost as bad as Nalesean in insisting that Mat have the proper frills, and in insisting that the commanders of the Band be nobles.
But he hasn't really been playing the Game of Houses, has he? Or perhaps he's a really subtle player.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
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He hasn't had much opportunity, though I'm sure he held his own with Roedran, and he did pretty well with Egwene out on the ice.

PS - The subtle players are, after all, generally the best. The idiot Rand met in Tremonsien (Candevwin?) was far from a subtle player.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:32 PM
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My take is that since Dobraine rhymes with Moiraine, he must be a good guy. :P

Really though, he sorta slipped my mind in that I really didn't find him that important. Although thinking back, I agree with sentiments here. I like guy but am a bit distrustful because he is from where he is. Then again, he could be the exception to the rule. Meaning he's the one guy who doesn't like all those house games for power etc.
He plays. All the nobles play to some extent or another. I think he's either very subtle (and therefore, very good) or he's just biding his time and waiting for opportunity and amazed at everything that Rand keeps handing him that he can just file away for use later.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:34 PM
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Oh, he can play the game, but as far as I know, he has not used his position in the Band to advance the prospects of his House at all.
Both with Roedran and with Egwene he was acting to benefit the Band, not his own House nor his own glory.

Compare his attitude to that of Weiramon, and the difference is fairly striking. Even discounting the fact that Weiramon is a bit less competent.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:35 PM
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Oh, he can play the game, but as far as I know, he has not used his position in the Band to advance the prospects of his House at all.
That's because he no longer cares about his House - he abandoned it to follow a ta'veren. Probably he was a minor member of the House and didn't stand to lose much, but there it is. He definitely played his cards right when Mat first gave him orders at the Battle of Cairhien. "I'll do it - if you lead half." Good move, that. It secured his position with the Band, which is all he cares about now.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:48 PM
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Both with Roedran and with Egwene he was acting to benefit the Band, not his own House nor his own glory.
Burn my soul, this man is no Lord! Putting a band of commoners ahead of House and glory!

No doubt he will die alone on the field of battle, with only a single servant at his side. He can put some of that Two Rivers tabac in his pipe and smoke it.
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