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Old 08-20-2011, 06:10 PM
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Default Twice Dawns the Day - a theory

A DM person asked me to give some thoughts on her next blog post on this subject, so I was giving her my rundown of the Mordred thing because she had a theory that Narishma, Alivia, and someone else would use Callandor to go after Dark Rand (who is still lurking, thanks to the link with Moridin and the merge foreseen by Min).

Basically, I think Gawyn will attempt to go after Dark Rand using the Bloodrings (and maybe a friend or two), and that he will manage to mortally wound Rand (perhaps before Rand kills him - we will see). For a moment, the world will hang in the balance, because if Rand dies by any other means than balefire, then the Dark One will have his soul.

Then, Moiraine will show up and balefire him and save the world. I came up with this idea before TOM, but the problem was that Moiraine's strongest balefire was only enough to remove a few seconds from the Pattern, and RJ indicated that the Dark One could still retrieve a soul if the balefire was weak enough. This didn't make sense to a lot of people, but nevertheless RJ said it, and it was a loophole in the theory. However, Moiraine returned, and with the angreal, she's stronger than she was before (despite actually being much weaker). Callandor could also do the trick. I still have to think on that particular detail.

So, that led me to 'twice dawns the day'. I was explaining that, though I think Dragonmount will erupt when Rand dies, since he is one with the land, I don't think that RJ would have stretched the meaning of the word 'dawn' quite so much as to refer to clearing the smoke of Dragonmount's eruption with the Power. Then I brought up the balefire thing, and I told her the same thing I've always told others when they bring it up - what would you have to balefire to make the earth's rotation reverse?

Then it occurred to me that balefiring Rand might actually do the trick, since he is one with the land. Balefiring him really strong - like with Callandor - could revert everything in the world to the point before he merged with Moridin, or the point before his dumb ass broke the seals. And thus Moiraine saves the day.

I know some people are going to react to this idea with something like deus ex machina, but I think it's worth noting that the twice-dawning day is really just a minor detail in the scheme of things. We've been trying to figure out what it means for years, but this is the first idea I've seen or come up with that I think fits RJ's logic. I don't think he would use 'dawn' if he didn't mean the sun rising, and I don't think he would say 'twice dawns the day' if he was referring to two different days. Thus, the earth's rotation has to revert to before dawn. The only logical way to make that happen is balefire, and the only possible explanation for that is the 'Dragon is one with the land' thing. And it fits - with everything, really.

Edit - The quotes that led me to thinking this way (keep in mind I think her questions to the 'Finns were along these lines):

Quote:
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 13 - Choices

"A few days respite, and you are ready to give up." Her calm, level voice contrasted sharply with her eyes. "A day or two of quiet, and already you have forgotten Winternight."

"We haven't forgotten," Perrin said. "It's just – " Still not raising her voice, the Aes Sedai treated him as she had the gleeman.

"Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?" She ran her eyes over them – that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy – but she gave no one a chance to speak. "The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to so, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary. He had a hard time sleeping that night, and he was not the only one. Even the gleeman did not begin snoring till long after the last coals died. For once, Moiraine offered no help.
Quote:
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 41 - Old Friends, and New Threats

"What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?" the Aes Sedai asked. Her voice was level, yet sharp. "If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead."
Quote:
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath

"The viewings?"

She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."
Quote:
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 35 - Into the Woods

A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh.
And of course, there's the thread (and poll) I made after TOM came out about breaking the seals.
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Old 08-20-2011, 06:31 PM
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Further thoughts:

The big question is how this would affect the people. Rand is one with the Land - does that mean that everyone's actions will revert? Or only his and the earth's actions? What about memories? Will people be able to remember what happened in those hours? It seems that they probably will be able to remember.

Another question is when the merge will happen. I would absolutely LOVE it if Rand woke up that way at Merrilor. I think this is part of the end of TOM that was moved to the beginning of AMOL (to avoid the cliffhanger, I think).
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:52 AM
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Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern? He's touched so much, that removing his thread from the Pattern too strongly would only accomplish what the DO is ultimately after.
However I can't offer an alternative, it is true that should he die another way, the DO can take his soul for Himself.

Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by kielbasaj View Post
Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern?
Don't think so, mostly because I think it's necessary. It's a vague-enough area that RJ left himself a lot of room to play with. Balefiring will probably fix more than it screws up - and they still have to fix the Pattern anyway (which is probably what they'll be doing when they seal the Bore).

Quote:
He's touched so much, that removing his thread from the Pattern too strongly would only accomplish what the DO is ultimately after.
Not if he's only balefired back a few hours.

Quote:
Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?
I really doubt it, since the fulfillment would only work for whoever was doing the Traveling.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Don't think so, mostly because I think it's necessary. It's a vague-enough area that RJ left himself a lot of room to play with. Balefiring will probably fix more than it screws up - and they still have to fix the Pattern anyway (which is probably what they'll be doing when they seal the Bore).


Not if he's only balefired back a few hours.


I really doubt it, since the fulfillment would only work for whoever was doing the Traveling.
He'd have to balefired a lot more powerfully to change the earth's rotation, it's not a normal case of balefiring to erase his presence or his acts alone, but rather that of the whole earth for a few hours. Even if he is tied to the land and the land to him, that's an insane amount of change, with an equal amount of force on the, let's face it, already worse for wear Pattern.

(edit)
Also, for him to bleed on the day that dawns twice, if he were to be balefired in order to create that day, he couldn't bleed twice on it, for he'd have been balefired. It surely couldn't mean that he'd bleed twice, then be balefired, because that could've happened at any time in the series.

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Old 08-21-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kielbasaj View Post
He'd have to balefired a lot more powerfully to change the earth's rotation
I think it's just a matter of time. In other words, he only has to be balefired enough so that his thread is burned back to before dawn. The connection to the land should take care of the rest.

Quote:
Also, for him to bleed on the day that dawns twice, if he were to be balefired in order to create that day, he couldn't bleed twice on it, for he'd have been balefired.
He doesn't necessarily have to bleed twice on that day (no prophecies explicitly say any such thing). Just once. But if he does have to bleed twice on that day, then he'll likely be resurrected before it's over with. Not that he couldn't do it twice before he died.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:31 AM
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I think it's just a matter of time. In other words, he only has to be balefired enough so that his thread is burned back to before dawn. The connection to the land should take care of the rest.
Sorry, I didn't make it clear before, I mentioned that even if it does occur that way because of his tie to the land, the amount of change in the Pattern is massive. You're only burning his thread with balefire, sure, but you are still removing a few hours from the whole of the Pattern when effectively turning back time.
Unless, of course, you're implying that it is merely reversing the earth's rotation without changing the course of time. I guess that could work, if indeed that's how it's to happen, but would it be instantaneous or would the earth actually change rotation, like rewinding a tape?
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:47 AM
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Sorry, I didn't make it clear before, I mentioned that even if it does occur that way because of his tie to the land, the amount of change in the Pattern is massive. You're only burning his thread with balefire, sure, but you are still removing a few hours from the whole of the Pattern when effectively turning back time.
Not the whole Pattern. Just the actions of the planet itself (which are actually quite limited). Rand is one with the Land, not the Pattern. (Or Time, for that matter.)
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:47 PM
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Not the whole Pattern. Just the actions of the planet itself (which are actually quite limited). Rand is one with the Land, not the Pattern. (Or Time, for that matter.)
Rand may not be one with the pattern, but his importance to an already fraying pattern is probably the most commented on thing in the series. His tavern-ness is already a fate changer, all things considered. And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack (more than it currently is) and doom everyone. He just has way too many ties for anyone to even consider burning him out of the pattern, even for a short time.

And most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with, so the whole thing is basically a "no dice" for me.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:58 PM
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Rand may not be one with the pattern, but his importance to an already fraying pattern is probably the most commented on thing in the series. His tavern-ness is already a fate changer, all things considered. And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack (more than it currently is) and doom everyone. He just has way too many ties for anyone to even consider burning him out of the pattern, even for a short time.

And most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with, so the whole thing is basically a "no dice" for me.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:10 PM
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However I can't offer an alternative, it is true that should he die another way, the DO can take his soul for Himself.
Wait, is this true?

Cause wouldn't that mean that everytime rands soul had been spun out he'd died from balefire: like, every time.

The issue i would have with this is that we have seen lews therin die- not balefire. Also in the flash forward episodes of rands lives in the great hunt he seems to die many times by mundane means...
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:27 PM
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:37 PM
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And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack
That's speculation, and has no real basis in fact.

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and most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with
Actually, it doesn't.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:38 PM
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Wait, is this true?

Cause wouldn't that mean that everytime rands soul had been spun out he'd died from balefire: like, every time.
Only when the Dark One is unconstrained enough to do something about it.

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The issue i would have with this is that we have seen lews therin die- not balefire.
The Dark One was sealed up, if imperfectly.

Quote:
Also in the flash forward episodes of rands lives in the great hunt he seems to die many times by mundane means...
And how else did those lives end? But the Dark One probably wouldn't be as interested in him if he weren't fulfilling his destiny.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:27 PM
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That's speculation, and has no real basis in fact.
Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term), when he balefired Rahvin it brought back Aviendha and Mat, and when he balefired those dark hounds it left Mat with only a rash that Moiriane was able to instead of losing his arm if not more.

And considering how unstable the Pattern is right now (you know, with the dead walking, extreme weather, ghost towns long dead appearing, buildings shifting within, and people going nuts, killing eachother, and then waking up with no memory of it the next morning), balefiring probably the most intertwined and important person in the world is not exactly the safest thing to do. The more powerful, the worse the "ripple."
Quote:
Actually, it doesn't.
Actually, it does. Read below.

Quote:
could revert everything in the world to the point before he merged with Moridin
I disagree with that premise still. Do I think they are connected? Obviously, with the occasional thought process being shared. But that's it.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:28 PM
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Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern?
I do not believe Balefire is going to be very effective against individuals who have walked in the Dream World, when Tar'mon Gai'don hits on Sunday. You've read what Perrin did to Egwene's balefire in the TAR, in the most recent WoT book. Nynaeve al'Meara did similar to Lightning, in her Accepted Test.
Moridin's own Balefire won't be effective either. One can't balefire oneself. Considering Moridin is connected to Rand al'Thor's soul, other methods outside of Balefire would be needed to attempt to kill Rand during Tar'mon Gai'don.

If Graendal's source of Balefire is through Moridin (ToM book), it's pretty much useless against Rand al'Thor too.

In any case, there's another vision by Min related to an Oynx hand/glove, implying Moridin is going to try something along the lines of Rahvin, to Rand, in AMoL book.

Rand and Moridin, Luc and Isam have very similar situations actually. Question is what'll be the outcome for Rand and Moridin's soul binding or merger? Failure for Moridin, in place of the relative success of the operation to merger Isam's soul to Luc's?


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Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?

My interpretation of 'twice dawns the days' is there, literally will be Light across Earth within a 24 hour period of time. Neither of which will be a natural Sun rise, because the whole Planet should be covered by a thick black & silver cloud layer by 'Sunday'.

(One question is will ta'veren eye walls remain functional on 'Sunday', outside of the Dragon's own possible eye wall? I do compare the Dragon to a Hurricane. Perhaps comparing the Dragon to Hurricane Hugo which hit Charleston, SC just before TEOTW book was released.)

One caused by Lightning, via Rand al'Thor calling Light down everywhere above ground from the Heavens. Cause? Saidar, Saidin.

One caused by Dreaming, via Valan Luca creating Light by thought and imagination, after the 'World of Dream' and 'World of Flesh' have fully become One in the same on Earth. (Yes, A Mirror World become a Parallel World on Sunday. Seals are broken, then Dark One comes to try to finish the job.)

In both cases, not a Shadow will exist when Dawn comes Twice on Earth.

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Old 08-21-2011, 06:32 PM
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Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term)
Hundreds of people, done with the Choedan Kal. And only a small blip.

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Actually, it does.
No, it doesn't.

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I disagree with that premise still.
No one cares.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:44 PM
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He doesn't necessarily have to bleed twice on that day (no prophecies explicitly say any such thing). Just once. But if he does have to bleed twice on that day, then he'll likely be resurrected before it's over with. Not that he couldn't do it twice before he died.
Two individuals will bleed on that day, the Plowman Rand al'Thor and the Dragon Valan Luca.


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Old 08-21-2011, 06:55 PM
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Default Balefire is Weak. Dreaming is Strong.

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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term), when he balefired Rahvin it brought back Aviendha and Mat, and when he balefired those dark hounds it left Mat with only a rash that Moiriane was able to instead of losing his arm if not more.
Balefire is not likely the mechanism to bring back the Arad Domani Castle Rand destroyed in TGS book. Osan'gar wasn't bought back to life by Balefire either, when Rand balefired Elza Penfell (TGS book). Dreaming is most likely the mechanism.


Don't you recollect Nynaeve al'Meara creating a Crystal Palace by Dreaming it, in the TAR next to Elayne? Nynaeve al'Meara knows the trick, how to create Physical Structures by Dreaming them. Now put Nynaeve in a World, where thought creates reality....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
And considering how unstable the Pattern is right now (you know, with the dead walking, extreme weather, ghost towns long dead appearing, buildings shifting within, and people going nuts, killing eachother, and then waking up with no memory of it the next morning), balefiring probably the most intertwined and important person in the world is not exactly the safest thing to do. The more powerful, the worse the "ripple."
Earth is unstable, partially because a Mirror World is transforming into a Parallel World. Change, it happens.
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Old 08-21-2011, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Hundreds of people, done with the Choedan Kal. And only a small blip.
You mean a rather large "blip" that reverberated for quite some distance and shook a city full of people up. Otherwise you are downplaying it quite a bit.

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No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. It is a key part to it.


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No one cares.
And yet, I still disagree whether you care or not, because you're opinion is not mine, like it or not.
 


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