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  #41  
Old 09-28-2012, 11:54 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
They might, however, find an excuse to take off for Rhuidean.
Sorilea wouldn't do that, would she?
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  #42  
Old 09-28-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Sorilea wouldn't do that, would she?
Umm, not sure this is a spoiler thread, so before I respond:

Spoiler:

That's still not confirmation, just a point that one of the two "Aiel Traitor" candidates" has conveniently left the building - Bair. That's convenient for Bair if she's a traitor, but it's also convenient for Sorilea for different reasons; it keeps the non-channeling person who can confirm who revealed Cadsuane's secret safely away from Cadsuane's clutches.
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  #43  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:03 PM
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Bair is not really a candidate. There's not a single clue that she's a Darkfriend, and she doesn't have the ability to betray Cadsuane's weave.
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  #44  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:14 PM
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Bair is not really a candidate. There's not a single clue that she's a Darkfriend, and she doesn't have the ability to betray Cadsuane's weave.
The fact that she is one of exactly two people who Cadsuane gave knowledge of the Domination Band's location to before being betrayed is a giant-sized clue. I don't see a bunch of mini clues necessarily being dropped for that to happen; haven't seen anything by RJ promising such clues.

As far as revealing the precise nature of the weaves, she doesn't have to do that. Just reveal where the Band is, and that it's protected, which isn't really hard to guess, thanks to Aes Sedai reliance on gesturing in weaving.

*edit - Devil's advocacy and hedging aside, I do prefer and believe Sorilea is the more likely candidate, but that Bair cannot be completely eliminated. Actually, I would be horribly disappointed by Bair turning out to be the traitor, because she's practically a non-entity, and would feel like my effort in writing the Aiel Traitor theory joyless use of time.
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  #45  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:29 PM
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The location itself was probably easy enough to guess, but the location wasn't enough. They had to have Cadsuane's weave.
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  #46  
Old 09-29-2012, 02:44 AM
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I just realised there's a Portal Stone close to Rhuidean. Would any Trollocs be interested in a sight seeing tour of the town?
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  #47  
Old 09-29-2012, 05:56 AM
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In the middle of the Dying Ground? Not likely...
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  #48  
Old 09-29-2012, 06:00 AM
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In the middle of the Dying Ground? Not likely...
Point. So maybe their tour operator would have to remain a trifle vague about their precise holiday destination.
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  #49  
Old 10-01-2012, 04:50 PM
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I think Rand was overstating his abilities in that instance. He didn't reveal his tip either. Would you?
It's likely Verin's letter contained the names of a few other people, as well. Rand doesn't have to tell them how he knows where to look--he only has to make them think he knows.
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  #50  
Old 10-04-2012, 07:16 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
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Hold on. Why would being stilled abolish one's oaths to the DO? Aren't there plenty of non-power-wielding people with oaths sworn to the DO?

Is there a Darksider oath rod that I've forgotten about? Is this something so big and important that I'm gonna kick myself when my re-read takes me to it?
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  #51  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:06 AM
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It depends on whether or not those oaths are One Power enhanced.
If there is such an enhancement, then they would be more binding on channelers than on non-channelers, but channelers could then be freed from the oaths by losing the ability to channel.
If there is no such an enhancement, then they could simply decide to change sides ones again, as Ingtar did, and that would be that.
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It depends on whether or not those oaths are One Power enhanced.
Do we have reason to believe that the oaths are enhanced by the One Power? And, whose Power would do the enhancing? Would it be (a) the Power of the person under oath, (b) the Power of the person/DO accepting the oath, or (c) the Power of a ter'angreal?

On that note, can non-channelers be bound by the WT's oath rod? The trickle of Spirit (or whatever) that is needed to make it work does not need to come from the person taking the oaths, right? If so, then a non-channeler would not have the same oath-escape option of stilling... or, could their oaths be released by stilling the person who did the channeling to power the oath rod?

Similarly, what about bonding? I assume that a Warder bond is severed when the AS is stilled, but what about a first-sister bond? If Elayne is stilled, would she still be bonded [bound?] to Aviendha? What about Min? If Elayne & Aviendha were both stilled, would Rand still be bonded to Min?

What about a first-sister bond between non-channelers? You couldn't break that bond by stilling the WO who laid the weave on them, could you? If you tie-off a weave, then release the Source, the weave stays tied, right? So, if you tie off a weave, then get stilled, that weave should still hold, right?

Or, what if...? Or...? Or....?!? Argh! Why does every question lead to so many more questions?!
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2012, 03:52 AM
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Well, from what I remember (haven't bothered to reread the thread now), this is specifically about people who were turned with the 13x13 trick. That works only on people who can channel, so it makes sense that their own power would be involved in it somehow. Thus, it seems at least possible (not certain, granted) that Severing and then Healing them could undo the effects of the 13x13 trick.
I would say that the idea is sound enough to give it a try, though not so sound that I would hold out very much hope of it actually working.

Quote:
What about Min? If Elayne & Aviendha were both stilled, would Rand still be bonded to Min?
Now that one is a nice question. Let's try it, shall we?
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  #54  
Old 10-15-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon View Post
Do we have reason to believe that the oaths are enhanced by the One Power? And, whose Power would do the enhancing? Would it be (a) the Power of the person under oath, (b) the Power of the person/DO accepting the oath, or (c) the Power of a ter'angreal?
The Oath Rod only works on chanellers. Oaths disappear on severing, and do not come back when severing is healed (See Siuan).

It is too bad Verin did not know this. She could have asked Egwene for stilling. This would not free her from the DO (still have the DF connection) but there would be no Oaths (capitalized) holding her.
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  #55  
Old 10-16-2012, 03:48 AM
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First, it is not clear that Egwene would have done it. Second, it is not clear that Egwene could have done it; stilling an AS requires a certain minimum amount of power, and it isn't certain Egwene, doped up as she was, had enough of it.
Third, it is quite clear that Verin's oath prevented her from taking such an approach. That one is a rather serious problem with the idea, I would say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD, Chapter 39, A Visit from Verin Sedai
'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.'
If she'd just said "still me", Egwene wouldn't have done it. But she could not explain because the oath she wanted to get rid of explicitly prevented her from doing so.
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  #56  
Old 10-16-2012, 06:28 AM
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If she'd just said "still me", Egwene wouldn't have done it. But she could not explain because the oath she wanted to get rid of explicitly prevented her from doing so.
She could have said "Stilling me is imperative to save the tower". Presuming Verin was bound by the oaths, this would have meant to Egwene that she actually believed it.
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  #57  
Old 10-16-2012, 09:58 AM
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She could have said "Stilling me is imperative to save the tower". Presuming Verin was bound by the oaths, this would have meant to Egwene that she actually believed it.
In Egwene's Accepted test, Rand told her "killing me is imperative to save the world" and she didn't do that. Is there any indication that she's learned anything since then?
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  #58  
Old 10-17-2012, 01:25 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
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The Oath Rod only works on chanellers. Oaths disappear on severing, and do not come back when severing is healed (See Siuan).

It is too bad Verin did not know this. She could have asked Egwene for stilling. This would not free her from the DO (still have the DF connection) but there would be no Oaths (capitalized) holding her.
So, you're saying that there is a Darkside Oath Rod? It's not Verin's WT Oaths that are keeping her from spilling DF secrets.
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  #59  
Old 10-18-2012, 03:22 AM
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So, you're saying that there is a Darkside Oath Rod? It's not Verin's WT Oaths that are keeping her from spilling DF secrets.
No there isn't, and yes they were (and weren't).
The oath that prevented that spilling was sworn on the standard White Tower Oath Rod. But it wasn't the WT Oaths which did this, it was the BA Oaths which she'd sworn to replace the WT ones. So if she had been able to remove those BA Oaths, then she would have been able to blab.

On the other hand, a DF who has actually dedicated him or her self to the Shadow, has a connection to the DO whether or not that person can channel. The clearest evidence for this comes from Padan Fain, who can actually see the marks of this. That connection doesn't prevent the DF from spilling the beans on Shadow plots, but it does provide the Shadow a way of finding the bean spiller and dispensing chastisement.
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  #60  
Old 10-30-2012, 11:38 AM
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But it wasn't the WT Oaths which did this, it was the BA Oaths which she'd sworn to replace the WT ones. So if she had been able to remove those BA Oaths, then she would have been able to blab.
*If* Verin Sedai have become an experienced Dreamwalker, she could have fully removed the Black Ajah Oaths herself.

How?

Dream of an Oath Rod as being 'real', as being solid. Then renounce the Black Ajah Oaths, as Talene Minly once did.

Egwene al'Vere did a similar thing, in the The Dragon Reborn book, upon stilling Amico Nagoyin in a Dream. Egwene choose to keep Amico stilled, yet Egwene choose to undo all the changes to physical objects done in the Dream.

Whereas Nynaeve al'Meara and Elayne Trakand each can permanent build castles in the sky and keep it that way, if they choose to. It's one of major keys to how 'A Memory of Light' will unfold.

Huh?

Ditch this Nightmare. Create a new Dream World anew. From what? Memory. Desire.


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On the other hand, a DF who has actually dedicated him or her self to the Shadow, has a connection to the DO whether or not that person can channel. ding the bean spiller and dispensing chastisement.
Yes. However, that link to the Dark One can be fully removed. Just as the taint on the mind, has been removed from multiple Asha'man by Nynaeve al'Meara previously.
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