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  #1  
Old 01-12-2012, 04:10 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Default Does size matter?

I may just be a bad searcher but I couldn't find anything related to this but here it goes:

How strong are the Choeden Kal exactly? Do we have any clue as to how much stronger they are than Callandor or the fluted rod?

Furthermore, does the size of the sa'angreal matter? I would have to assume so because of the size of the Kals but then why is the wand so small (its comparable to the angreal we know about).

Last one, is there a definition of the difference between angreal and sa'angreal? Or are these terms just used on weak power sources and strong power sources?
  #2  
Old 01-12-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
I may just be a bad searcher but I couldn't find anything related to this but here it goes:

How strong are the Choeden Kal exactly? Do we have any clue as to how much stronger they are than Callandor or the fluted rod?

Furthermore, does the size of the sa'angreal matter? I would have to assume so because of the size of the Kals but then why is the wand so small (its comparable to the angreal we know about).

Last one, is there a definition of the difference between angreal and sa'angreal? Or are these terms just used on weak power sources and strong power sources?
The Choedan Kal are the strongest sa'angreal ever made. I have no idea how much stronger this makes them than Callandor, but Rand thinks in TGS that he can do what he needs to with Callandor and doesn't require the CK, so they are not massively stronger.

I don't think size actually has anything to do with it; as you noted, the fluted wand is regular size, and Callandor is only the size of a regular sword. I think the reason the CK are so huge is to prevent anyone from stealing them - the access keys make them useless to anyone who doesn't have the access key ter'angreal.

As far as I know, there is no hard and fast line where an angreal becomes a sa'angreal that we are presently aware of. I would speculate that one actually does, and it's part of the construction process (I believe angreal and sa'angreal have to be manufactured by a linked circle).
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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Depends on how you'd define "massively." When referring to Callandor, Siuan says that a city could be leveled in one blow. When referring to the Choedan Kal, continents are said to be able to be destroyed in one blow, even the world.
  #4  
Old 01-12-2012, 09:47 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Quote:
I don't think size actually has anything to do with it; as you noted, the fluted wand is regular size, and Callandor is only the size of a regular sword. I think the reason the CK are so huge is to prevent anyone from stealing them - the access keys make them useless to anyone who doesn't have the access key ter'angreal.
I liked this idea until I really thought about it. If this were the case then people would just have to steal the access keys and it would be the same as if they stole the sa'angreal themselves.

Quote:
As far as I know, there is no hard and fast line where an angreal becomes a sa'angreal that we are presently aware of. I would speculate that one actually does, and it's part of the construction process (I believe angreal and sa'angreal have to be manufactured by a linked circle).
On that note, is there any differences between sa'angreal and angreal OTHER than the power difference?
  #5  
Old 01-13-2012, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
I liked this idea until I really thought about it. If this were the case then people would just have to steal the access keys and it would be the same as if they stole the sa'angreal themselves.
Indeed, and that's exactly what they tried to do. Hiding the access keys was obviously a priority for the AS in the AOL:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Strike At Shayol Ghul
Just as the paired sa’angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter’angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa’angreal (apparently because of a danger of “uncontrolled resonances during the final stages,” whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter’angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa’angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter’angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2012, 08:01 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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I think size does make a difference, since I fail to see the reason for an unusable 50 foot high statue sa'angreal otherwise. I think when extremely great strength sa'angreal are made, there is no way to buffer them (hence Callandor's flaw and the need for access keys with the Choedan Kal), and they also need to be quite big. I think the strength difference between the CK and Callandor is immense. No one ever said Callandor can come close to unmaking creation. As a point of comparison, Rand said he had the strength of a hundred men when he used Callandor, whereas Egwene said that even if all the women of the Tower used the Power together, they wouldn't come close to matching the strength of the CK. Which implies a power difference of at least one order of magnitude.

One possible difference between angreal and sa'angreal may be that while angreal multiply your strength, sa'angreal may just allow you to access a set strength that is well beyond your ability. Basically, it may be that Nynaeve and Egwene would both magnify their power to the same amount using the fluted rod.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
One possible difference between angreal and sa'angreal may be that while angreal multiply your strength, sa'angreal may just allow you to access a set strength that is well beyond your ability. Basically, it may be that Nynaeve and Egwene would both magnify their power to the same amount using the fluted rod.
That seems unlikely, as, when the rod is used by a circle led by Siuan to heal Mat (in TDR), Nynaeve remarks that she could channel almost half of what those AS with that rod could do:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDR, Chapter x, X
Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa'angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa'angreal had no power of their own, of course – they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel – but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.
...
Just as softly, Nynaeve said, "If we stop them – if we could stop them – he'll die. I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power." She paused as if she had just heard her own words – that she could channel half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa'angreal – and her voice grew even fainter. "Light help me, I want to."
  #8  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:05 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
That seems unlikely, as, when the rod is used by a circle led by Siuan to heal Mat (in TDR), Nynaeve remarks that she could channel almost half of what those AS with that rod could do:
That isn't what she said at all. She says she couldn't handle half of that much of the power, then seems to realize the absurdity of that statement. For proof, there's Elayne's statement that with a fairly weak angreal, the amber turtle, she can handle twice as much as Nynaeve, and this is in tPoD, when Nynaeve was much stronger than in tDR. So the idea that Nynaeve could, in tDR, handle half as much as Siuan could draw through Vora's sa'angreal is laughable.

That said, I don't think the argument that sa'angreal provide an equal increase for all is all that strong. Its just a fairly possible one.
  #9  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
The Choedan Kal are the strongest sa'angreal ever made. I have no idea how much stronger this makes them than Callandor, but Rand thinks in TGS that he can do what he needs to with Callandor and doesn't require the CK, so they are not massively stronger.
More likely, whatever Rand has to do is not dependent on strength in the One Power to the degree where one needs enough saidin to melt a continent.

THAT'S how strong the CKs are.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe
I think size does make a difference, since I fail to see the reason for an unusable 50 foot high statue sa'angreal otherwise.
Agreed. Unless there's something we don't know about the process of making angreal or sa'angreal, it would be stupid and wholly irrational to make the most powerful sa'angreal gigantic statues when you could simply enchant (for lack of a better word) something smaller that could just as easily fit in your pocket.

Regarding strength in the One Power from angreal/sa'angreal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
Matt: Question—The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

Brandon: One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a – I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on...this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way angreal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using angreal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.
Also, as it is the case with many things in this series, the reality is more nuanced than we otherwise might think. There are other considerations to be kept in mind rather than simply raw Power usage. Gender differences exist, meaning that women are less powerful in channeling overall but have greater dexterity in their weaving. Also, channelers have Talents which can throw off Power calculations. Consider:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Q: Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the Power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself.
RJ: Some people have shielding Talents.
edit 2: Also consider this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
RJ: "The Power was used in blending the metals (and other materials...) and altering the structure. There is no source of the Power in these weapons, nor do they draw on the Power like angreal...."
Maybe an interesting question is the mechanism for HOW a channeler is able to draw more of the Power through an angreal/sa'angreal. If sa/angreals "draw on the Power", then is channeling through one of them similar to forming a circle? Maybe that would help explain the power increase. Just idle speculation.

Last edited by fdsaf3; 01-13-2012 at 10:09 AM.
  #11  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:10 AM
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It's not the size of the boat its the motion of the ocean?

Oh wait. Oh.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
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If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.
I'm always hesitant to use the internal thoughts and opinions of characters as proof of something theoretical like this, but there are passages in the books and other RJ WoT writings which might convince you otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ, Strike at Shayol Ghul
Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances.
I don't have the books handy (I'm at work), but throw in Lanfear's comment to Rand about how they could challenge the Dark One, and maybe even the Creator, if they used the Chodean Kal in conjunction.

Compared to Siuan Sanche's comment to Nyneave that Callandor could "level a city with a blow", the magnitude of available Power seems quite significantly higher for the Chodean Kal than Callandor.

Of course, it's difficult to know since a lot of this is what a character believes to be true, and not necessarily what is actually the case.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
If size does make a difference, the Choedan Kal would have to be several hundred times more powerful than Callandor. Since Callandor is known to be among the most powerful male sa'angreal (even with its problems) I don't really see how this can be the case. I don't think Callandor is that much weaker.
Okay to illustrate my point, let's assign some arbitrary numbers. Just humor me, I'm not saying these numbers are legitimate, only that they could be treated as a valid interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
this one my understanding is that [an angreal] is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case.
Okay, so an angreal is a reservoir of power.

So let's say that channelers fall on a scale of power from 1 to 25 with Rand at 25 and someone like Morgase all the way down at 1. Assume that a man at level 20 is roughly as powerful as a woman at level 20 and can do the same things for the most part.

We know that means that angreal are modifiers. They're reservoirs of power in their own right which means that whatever they offer gets added to the user's initial score.

So, let's say the Fat Little Man is a +3. When Rand uses it, he goes from a 25 to a 28.

If we suppose that Logain has natural score of 23 (close to Rand but not quite there), then when he uses the Fat Little Man, he goes up to a 26.

Okay, so let's list some angreal for men and arbitrarily assign them numbers. The WOT wiki only lists one known angreal for men (the Fat Little Man), so I'm going to include female angreal just for a sense of scale. The same concept applies. Greandel's golden ring angreal is a +4. When she uses it, she gets 4 points added to her score.

Bear in mind, these numbers are right out of my head. I am not saying these are the actual figures RJ kept in his notes.

*****************
Moiraine's angreal (the woman in flowing robes) is a + 5.

Aviendha's Amber Turtle is a +7

Verin's Lily Broach is a +2

Graendel's golden ring is a +4

Cadsuane's shrike is a +8

Nynaeve's bracelet is a +6

Moiraine's bracelet is a +14

The Fat Little Man is a +3

***********************

Now sa'angreal.

The Fluted wand is a +22.

Callandor is a +100.


So, far, Callandor stands out as being the most powerful sa'angreal on the scale. And if we assume that other male sa'angreal range from +20 to +30, then certainly Callandor is one of the most powerful ever made.


The Female Choeden Kal is a +1000.

The Male Choeden Kal is a +1000.

So, Callador as a +100 is still one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a man but the Choeden Kal is ten times more powerful anyway.
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Last edited by Seeker; 01-13-2012 at 11:49 AM.
  #15  
Old 01-13-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
I'm always hesitant to use the internal thoughts and opinions of characters as proof of something theoretical like this, but there are passages in the books and other RJ WoT writings which might convince you otherwise.



I don't have the books handy (I'm at work), but throw in Lanfear's comment to Rand about how they could challenge the Dark One, and maybe even the Creator, if they used the Chodean Kal in conjunction.

Compared to Siuan Sanche's comment to Nyneave that Callandor could "level a city with a blow", the magnitude of available Power seems quite significantly higher for the Chodean Kal than Callandor.

Of course, it's difficult to know since a lot of this is what a character believes to be true, and not necessarily what is actually the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Okay to illustrate my point, let's assign some arbitrary numbers. Just humor me, I'm not saying these numbers are legitimate, only that they could be treated as a valid interpretation.



Okay, so an angreal is a reservoir of power.

So let's say that channelers fall on a scale of power from 1 to 25 with Rand at 25 and someone like Morgase all the way down at 1. Assume that a man at level 20 is roughly as powerful as a woman at level 20 and can do the same things for the most part.

We know that means that angreal are modifiers. They're reservoirs of power in their own right which means that whatever they offer gets added to the user's initial score.

So, let's say the Fat Little Man is a +3. When Rand uses it, he goes from a 25 to a 28.

If we suppose that Logain has natural score of 23 (close to Rand but not quite there), then when he uses the Fat Little Man, he goes up to a 26.

Okay, so let's list some angreal for men and arbitrarily assign them numbers. The WOT wiki only lists one known angreal for men (the Fat Little Man), so I'm going to include female angreal just for a sense of scale. The same concept applies. Greandel's golden ring angreal is a +4. When she uses it, she gets 4 points added to her score.

Bear in mind, these numbers are right out of my head. I am not saying these are the actual figures RJ kept in his notes.

*****************
Moiraine's angreal (the woman in flowing robes) is a + 5.

Aviendha's Amber Turtle is a +7

Verin's Lily Broach is a +2

Graendel's golden ring is a +4

Cadsuane's shrike is a +8

Nynaeve's bracelet is a +6

Moiraine's bracelet is a +14

The Fat Little Man is a +3

***********************

Now sa'angreal.

The Fluted wand is a +22.

Callandor is a +100.


So, far, Callandor stands out as being the most powerful sa'angreal on the scale. And if we assume that other male sa'angreal range from +20 to +30, then certainly Callandor is one of the most powerful ever made.


The Female Choeden Kal is a +1000.

The Male Choeden Kal is a +1000.

So, Callador as a +100 is still one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a man but the Choeden Kal is ten times more powerful anyway.
Yes. How does that prove the Choedan Kal are stronger because they're bigger? Even at +100, Callandor is not significantly larger than any other angreal or sa'angreal.
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  #16  
Old 01-13-2012, 12:47 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Yes. How does that prove the Choedan Kal are stronger because they're bigger? Even at +100, Callandor is not significantly larger than any other angreal or sa'angreal.
If it is a logarithmic scale, then it would quite a substantial difference.
  #17  
Old 01-13-2012, 01:11 PM
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To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2012, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?
Rule of cool?

Since angreal seem to come in any shape, I would argue that there is no reason to make one in the shape of a giant statue except human vanity. Sort of a testament to our great achievement.

I wouldn't say that the Choeden Kal are more powerful because they are bigger but rather that they have to be that big in order to be as powerful as they are. The bigger the battery, the more juice it outputs, which is another reason why I think they're much much much more powerful than Callandor. But, if that seems overly simplistic, please remember that this is a book and the author probably didn't think of the One Power in terms of actual physics.

Rule of Cool. Big = Powerful.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:21 PM
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If you have a have a sa'angreal in the shape of bagpipes, and you channel through it while playing it, would that improve the music?
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
To argue it another way: if the size of the sa'angreal was the or a major factor on its power, why not just build entirely square or oblong (or otherwise geometric) sa'angreal? Why build one in the shape of a sword, another as a giant statue, a third as a fluted wand, etc?
style over substance old boy.

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it looks better so it is better
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Last edited by confused at birth; 01-13-2012 at 01:24 PM.
 


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