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  #1  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:21 AM
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Default The Dark Prophecy Unfulfilled

NOTE: This was originally a response to "Have The Three Become One?" thread, but as I got into writing it, I decided it probably warranted its own thread. I also used some ideas from the Cuendillar thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
If Rand is ripped out from TAR to be saved/resurrected, does that mean that the attempt to seal the bore will be done in TAR? Or is that a reference to him falling for Lanfear's trap in TAR?

The Lanfear part comes from the end of book 13 as well as the Dark Prophecy that Verin handed to Suian and Moiraine in TGH "daughter of the night searching for her lover to die and to serve ... " (or however that went).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH, 7, Blood Calls Blood
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
This prophecy has not been fulfilled, but it's from so long ago that a lot of people have forgotten about it. The rest of the Dark Prophecy has come true in one way or another. There are a couple of curious bits associated with this. Firstly, Rand has not become Lanfear's lover. Secondly, even if he did, at this stage, would that really qualify him as a "new lover", given that he to all intents and purposes is Lews Therin and has all of his memories? If that's the case, the question in the first place should be: who is the new lover? At this stage, the candidates appear to be down to Rand and Moridin, but Moridin can't be said to be serving her in any meaningful sense, nor is there any indication that he has the ability to die and come back. So the new lover most likely is Rand, and we have to assume that's something that will happen in AMOL; particularly since "lover" is a term that has a peculiarly physical connotation to it, implying that an old soul in a new body would a new lover be...

So the question appears to be, in what way shall Rand serve Lanfear (now Cyndane*)? He could serve her by rescuing her from the shadow, as the end of TOM suggests he is considering doing. I've thought for a while that the end of TOM will propel Rand into going off and doing something foolhardy before the rest of the world is ready, perhaps leading to his untimely death (and, if he is the Broken Wolf, bringing suffering and sorrow to the hearts of men). The prevailing notion is that Rand/The Dragon will be torn out of TAR. Lanfear, of course, claimed TAR as her realm (even though Moggy was more skilled), and so far the only person we've seen perform the ripping out of TAR was a Forsaken.

Interestingly, the "weave" that ripped Birgitte out of TAR may not have been a weave at all. There's been some recent discussion of the notion that Moghedien might have performed it with the True Power, but then there's this, from Brandon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS, Pancakes and Fries, aka Brandon Does Amsterdam 31 May 2011 - Jarno reporting
Brandon confirmed this. He added that the real question would be of a non-channeler would be able to 'channel' in Tel'aran'rhiod. He believed that a non-channeler would not be able to channel, but would be able to create the same effects. So to most intents and purposes it would look as if they channeled.
Here's the specific extract:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOH, 34, A Silver Arrow
The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.
Note that Nynaeve does not notice any weaves or flows forming from Moghedien. This might be because she's simply too traumatised, or it might be because Moghedien used the True Power, or it might be because she didn't actually channel. If it's either of the latter, why is the glow noticeable? The True Power has been discussed elsewhere, so I'll not go into it here, other than to say that I do not think it is possible or necessarily the case that Moghedien could hold both the OP and the TP at the same time. However, what happens to Birgitte does appear very much like a TP-gateway pushing her out of TAR, as it resembles Ishamael's travelling in Dragonmount.

However, the glow appearing when Moghedien was merely manipulating TAR might have a few alternative explanations. The first: channelling makes it easier to manipulate TAR strongly without being altered yourself. This is pure conjecture, based on the notion of the oneness as a concentration exercise and a vague idea that the One Power might make someone harder to alter in TAR. The second is that it may simply have been a distraction. Moghedien probably did not want Nynaeve to know what she was doing; if you can harm a Hero of the Horn by tearing her out of TAR, imagine what you could do to a regular Dreamwalker. Hint: it probably doesn't involve waking up.

Whatever the nature of Birgitte's ripping out, the likelihood is that Nynaeve al'Meara does not know how to do it. She took note of no weaves, perhaps being so blinded by Moghedien's glow that she couldn't see them. She has more experience with TAR than many others, but nowhere near the skill of Moghedien. She cannot channel the True Power. Compare all that to Lanfear: if it is a weave, it's a weave known to at least one of the Chosen, and it's not too much of a leap to suggest it might also be known to others; she is skilled enough with TAR to claim it as her realm, despite Moghedien's superior skill; she is a Chosen, and may retain permission to channel the True Power.

What I envisage is Rand's death during the escape attempt with Cyndane (or afterwards due to some injury). Nynaeve will then remember how Birgitte was ripped from TAR and hit upon it as a way to bring Rand back, but will be unable to accomplish it alone. Cyndane will help her, but will demand a price for her aid; in this way, Rand will serve her (by rescuing her) and die (in the attempt) but serve her still (by being torn out of TAR by Cyndane and agreeing to some price in order to return and save the world). The more I think about this, the more it looks as if Cyndane is actually the only person who could manage this.

*unless you're Felix.
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:46 AM
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I like this idea, but I think Nynaeve would be more likely to try to force Moghedien to do it than make a deal with Cyndane. Also, we don't know if Moghedien's way is the only way to remove someone from T'A'R. I've always wondered what would happen if someone entered T'A'R in the flesh through a gateway like Rand at the end of TFoH and tried to bring him out that way.
  #3  
Old 01-22-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
I like this idea, but I think Nynaeve would be more likely to try to force Moghedien to do it than make a deal with Cyndane. Also, we don't know if Moghedien's way is the only way to remove someone from T'A'R. I've always wondered what would happen if someone entered T'A'R in the flesh through a gateway like Rand at the end of TFoH and tried to bring him out that way.
So how do you think Rand will end up serving Cyndane after he dies? The prophecy must be fulfilled.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #4  
Old 01-22-2012, 11:38 AM
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What part of it is unfulfilled? It doesn't explicitly say that she would succeed in getting her new lover, or that the Shining Walls would kneel to her. In fact, it's somewhat circumspect in this, in a way that reeks of trickery and self-delusion hallmarking _dark_ prophecy.

She certainly did seek her new lover. She didn't get him, but she sought him.

Rand served her interests for a time, and will die, as foretold.

Moiraine stood against her coming.

The Shining Walls did kneel... bending knee to the forgotten sign as foretold by KC prophecy. Had Moiraine not stood against her, they would have still bent knee to that sign, but under Lanfear's control.
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  #5  
Old 01-22-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
What part of it is unfulfilled? It doesn't explicitly say that she would succeed in getting her new lover, or that the Shining Walls would kneel to her. In fact, it's somewhat circumspect in this, in a way that reeks of trickery and self-delusion hallmarking _dark_ prophecy.

She certainly did seek her new lover. She didn't get him, but she sought him.

Rand served her interests for a time, and will die, as foretold.

Moiraine stood against her coming.

The Shining Walls did kneel... bending knee to the forgotten sign as foretold by KC prophecy. Had Moiraine not stood against her, they would have still bent knee to that sign, but under Lanfear's control.
The part that is unfulfilled, even on your interpretation, is "serve her and die, yet serve her still". I'd quibble about Rand serving her interests for a time, but that's unimportant really. The significant part is his serving her after death. I agree that the shining walls kneeling is the same prophecy as "break and bend knee" so that doesn't matter.

The only possible other interpretation is that Rand will serve her by saving her after he has died. This relies on the idea that he served her in some way prior to her death, which I don't think is true; she wanted him to serve her, but he always resisted her.

I think the "lover" part definitely suggests a relationship between Rand and Cyndane. It says he will be her lover, not the other way round, which suggests reciprocation.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #6  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
So how do you think Rand will end up serving Cyndane after he dies? The prophecy must be fulfilled.
Moiraine said the 'Finn treaty held for both of them, which means Lanfear also got three wishes. Given Lanfear's state of mind at the time when she fell through the doorway—murderously angry at Rand for having betrayed her with another woman—one or more of her wishes likely involved him.

Interestingly, Moiraine also saw a possible future in which Lanfear carried Rand off and made him her devoted lover. So despite the murderous rage she displayed at the end of TFoH, Lanfear's wishes could have been aimed at making Rand want her (even if only in the sense of 'I want him to want me and suffer'). And he does experience desire for Cyndane at the end of ToM even though she doesn't look like her old self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM
Rand froze, staring into that pit. He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead, he felt hatred, concern, and—like a seething viper within him—desire.
We can probably rule out Moridin as Lanfear's new lover since Brandon said (in response to a fan question) that he wasn't aware of anything in the notes that specified whether Moridin was gay or not. Otherwise, that would have explained Rand's sudden desire for Cyndane—that those were actually Moridin's feelings.

As for ways Rand could serve her, I think he will (inadvertently or not) free her from the cour'souvra, possibly as a result of Moridin dying or becoming incapacited when Rand dies.
  #7  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
Moiraine said the 'Finn treaty held for both of them, which means Lanfear also got three wishes. Given Lanfear's state of mind at the time when she fell through the doorway—murderously angry at Rand for having betrayed her with another woman—one or more of her wishes likely involved him.

Interestingly, Moiraine also saw a possible future in which Lanfear carried Rand off and made him her devoted lover. So despite the murderous rage she displayed at the end of TFoH, Lanfear's wishes could have been aimed at making Rand want her (even if only in the sense of 'I want him to want me and suffer'). And he does experience desire for Cyndane at the end of ToM even though she doesn't look like her old self.



We can probably rule out Moridin as Lanfear's new lover since Brandon said (in response to a fan question) that he wasn't aware of anything in the notes that specified whether Moridin was gay or not. Otherwise, that would have explained Rand's sudden desire for Cyndane—that those were actually Moridin's feelings.

As for ways Rand could serve her, I think he will (inadvertently or not) free her from the cour'souvra, possibly as a result of Moridin dying or becoming incapacited when Rand dies.
If that's the case, how do you think he serves her before death? The examples to me seem to be more like Lanfear claiming he was doing as she wanted than him actually doing so. To be clear, my thinking is that the pre-death service is freeing her from the shadow/Moridin/the cour'souvra, with some other service (romance?) coming about after his death and her involvement in his resurrection.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #8  
Old 01-22-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Note that Nynaeve does not notice any weaves or flows forming from Moghedien. This might be because she's simply too traumatised
We know that when her block was still in place, Nynaeve could not see weaves unless she was angry so that could be it.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH, 7, Blood Calls Blood
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
I've thought on this.

The line: "Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

Everybody assumes the new lover is Rand. If that was the case it should be: "her old lover she seeks".

What if it is someone else who's her new lover.

It may be that Moridin has had her as a "love companion".

If Rand in some way frees her from the cour'souvra. It may be interpreted in the following way.

Lanfear/Cyndane is freed from Moridin and she walks free again.
Her new lover could then mean Moridin. I have no idea exactly what she does to him with the serve and die business. Perhaps he stops being Naeblis and that is the die part.
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Last edited by Tomp; 01-22-2012 at 02:41 PM.
  #10  
Old 01-22-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
I've thought on this.

The line: "Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

Everybody assumes the new lover is Rand. If that was the case it should be: "her old lover she seeks".

What if it is someone else who's her new lover.
I think the reason people think that it must be Rand is because of the following line about dying yet still serving. No-one else except Mat has the coming back from death foreshadowing that Rand does. If you think it might be Mat, firstly you're in Felix territory (i admit I'm already skirting close with my ideas about Rand serving by becoming a lover) , and secondly you have to bear in mind that he's died and lived again twice already without hooking up with Lanfear. Chronology might not necessarily be important, though, and there is a similarity between the title "Daughter of the Night" and "Daughter of the Nine Moons".
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #11  
Old 01-22-2012, 02:50 PM
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Just because the weaves weren't described doesn't mean she didn't see them. Also, when she was blocked, she couldn't even see the glow of saidar, so we know she wasn't blocked.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Just because the weaves weren't described doesn't mean she didn't see them. Also, when she was blocked, she couldn't even see the glow of saidar, so we know she wasn't blocked.
Unless it was something Moghedien was doing on purpose, a TAR effect.
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:03 PM
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In that case, Nynaeve would have noted the strangeness of the fact that there were no weaves.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
In that case, Nynaeve would have noted the strangeness of the fact that there were no weaves.
And yet, neither did Nynaeve note that there were any weaves. Even if there were and she did, she may well have not remembered them.
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
And yet, neither did Nynaeve note that there were any weaves.
This is so fucking stupid. Why should she have?


Quote:
Even if there were and she did, she may well have not remembered them.
You haven't read a single word I've written on this subject, have you? RJ and Brandon pointed out several times that she only has to see a weave once to remember it.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
This is so fucking stupid. Why should she have?



You haven't read a single word I've written on this subject, have you? RJ and Brandon pointed out several times that she only has to see a weave once to remember it.
Terez, I posited three different possible reasons why she might not have done. Plus, this very discussion was had elsewhere very recently, as I both pointed out and linked to. The key point of the theory is that Nynaeve doesn't know how to do whatever Moghedien did. It's more likely than not that she doesn't, because there are more methods by which it might have been done that she couldn't see than the one she did. If you want to debate that all over again, go do it in that thread. There's no reason for the attitude, the insults, or the language, especiallly when you know for a fact that I have read your writings.
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  #17  
Old 01-22-2012, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Terez, I posited three different possible reasons why she might not have done.
And the simplest, most intelligent reason never occurred to you.

Quote:
The key point of the theory is that Nynaeve doesn't know how to do whatever Moghedien did.
Which is retarded.
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  #18  
Old 01-22-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
And the simplest, most intelligent reason never occurred to you.


Which is retarded.
It apparently occurred to you, so why not enlighten me? I'm always willing to listen, if not agree, if you can manage it without being rude.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:50 PM
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Already did so, but I'll try to spell it out a little more for you since you're having trouble. There are plenty of times when Nynaeve watches people channel, and the weaves aren't described. Why should they be described in this case? 1) It's not required for us to know that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien was doing. 2) Weave description would have taken away from the emotional nature of the scene. 3) Weave description would have made it entirely too obvious that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien did, and could duplicate. Since it's one of the biggest secrets in the books, RJ didn't want to hit us over the head with it. That simple.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Already did so, but I'll try to spell it out a little more for you since you're having trouble. There are plenty of times when Nynaeve watches people channel, and the weaves aren't described. Why should they be described in this case? 1) It's not required for us to know that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien was doing. 2) Weave description would have taken away from the emotional nature of the scene. 3) Weave description would have made it entirely too obvious that Nynaeve saw what Moghedien did, and could duplicate. Since it's one of the biggest secrets in the books, RJ didn't want to hit us over the head with it. That simple.
You're attempting to prove a positive (that Nynaeve knows the weave) using a negative (that it has never since been mentioned). There are alternate explanations for all of the points you suggest. It may not have been mentioned because Nynaeve simply didn't see it or because it was done by a method she couldn't see. How realistic is it that in all the time she was emo-ing about Birgitte she never once beat herself up for remembering "that awful weave"? Even if RJ wanted to conceal it, simply not mentioning a key plot point isn't his style. The simplest explanation is she just doesn't know how it was done. There's simply no evidence she does.
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Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
 


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