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  #1  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:35 AM
Abbaaddon Abbaaddon is offline
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Default Turning to the Light?

First of all, I'd like to apologize if this question has alreday been raised before, but I cannot go through all the forum to see if it has been.

My point here is Ishy/Moridin's fate and his relation with Rand.
When I read the thread about the bond between Rand and Moridin, it struck me that they could talk like that, almost having a "pleasant" talk as if nothing was wrong. As far as I can remember, he is the only one who joined the Shadow whose choice was not motived by jealousy anger or whatever, but by pure logic.
What is nice with logic is that it can be changed with reason.

I realize it is not a very precise thought but what i would like to say is that I think Moridin could be brought back in the Light's camp.
It is motivated by my incredible romantic and weebly-wobly need to see things fixed right.
And as I love this character I don't want to see him die (^^)


One thing that, IMO, goes in favor of my theory is that they had this calm talk. Could you imagine the reaction of Demandred if Rand interrupted his dreams ? He'd throw balefire right away...

Rand and Ishy don't seem to hate each other as Demandred or Sammael would.
Then again, I know this is a bit far fetched but when it comes to Moridin, I can't think reasonably ^^.

To fit in the topic (sorry for my digression), the question is : do you think Moridin could be convinced to join the Light's camp ?
  #2  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:48 AM
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Is RAFO too trite?
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:53 AM
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Well, I could not blame you for telling me that, but what I would like is your thoughts about it, or a link to an article if it had already been discussed =)
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:05 PM
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Okay then - moved to a new thread for discussion!

TLers - what do you think?
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
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I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.
For the last time, let's be clear that logic and reason do not carry an arguement - an appeal to authority trumps them every time. If a lord disagrees with a High Lord, clearly the High Lord is correct.
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
I think there's a point at which a person is so far gone in their own beliefs that there should be no realistic chance of them ever turning back to a righteous path. I would be horrified if Rand pulled a Richard Rahl and somehow got Moridin to Turn To the Light with some stunning bit of logic and reason that somehow never occurred to the man in the thousands of years that he's been alive.

Perhaps Moridin simply hasnt read the Fountainhead yet...
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:06 PM
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In fairness, it was impressive that Richard Rahl was able to make money by buying lumber for cheap and selling it for more than he bought it for. It was like magic, because he did so without doing anything illegal (except smuggling, anyway)! It was obvious how such a show of wonder could turn that commie chick into a die hard libertarian.

As for the original topic, I really hope not. Moridin has had thousands of years to observe people being happy, knows the nature of the Wheel and rebirth, and still did not have Rand's epiphany about life being precious etc etc.

Moridin's logic for following the DO is that he will win eventually, so might as well help him out and get the whole thing over with. The only real way to turn him based on that equation would be to demonstrate that the DO could be killed or otherwise defeated (that is, making time not linear. It was somewhat popular in the fandom some decade or two ago, but RJ then indicated there was nothing special about this turning). I doubt that's where RJ was going with his cosmology.

Last edited by Grig; 01-31-2012 at 02:13 PM.
  #9  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:23 PM
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The only Foresaken personally connected to LTT is Lanfear. I would think that Rand has the best chance of convincing her, among the remaining Foresaken, to turn back to the light. But even that is a slim chance.

As to Moridin, I think he wanted Rand dead from the start. He tried playing mind games with Rand with his "serve me" junk; but there have been too many Ba'alz attempts to kill Rand.
  #10  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:31 PM
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The only Foresaken personally connected to LTT is Lanfear. I would think that Rand has the best chance of convincing her, among the remaining Foresaken, to turn back to the light. But even that is a slim chance.
There are a lot of small hints based on the "bond" narrative that suggest LTT may have had some sort of personal connection to Ishy when he was still just Elan. The references to the Ansaline Gardens, for example, and other things that immediately prompt him to envision Moridin's face.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grig View Post
In fairness, it was impressive that Richard Rahl was able to make money by buying lumber for cheap and selling it for more than he bought it for. It was like magic, because he did so without doing anything illegal (except smuggling, anyway)! It was obvious how such a show of wonder could turn that commie chick into a die hard libertarian.

As for the original topic, I really hope not. Moridin has had thousands of years to observe people being happy, knows the nature of the Wheel and rebirth, and still did not have Rand's epiphany about life being precious etc etc.

Moridin's logic for following the DO is that he will win eventually, so might as well help him out and get the whole thing over with. The only real way to turn him based on that equation would be to demonstrate that the DO could be killed or otherwise defeated (that is, making time not linear. It was somewhat popular in the fandom some decade or two ago, but RJ then indicated there was nothing special about this turning). I doubt that's where RJ was going with his cosmology.
Except for Fain/Mordeth and the evil they harbor, who, according to RJ, is indeed unique to this age.
For the first time, we have a 3rd player on the field.

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Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Fain, while crazy as a loon, believes that he can kill the DO and by the way his evil counters the DO's evil, maybe it is possible.
  #12  
Old 02-01-2012, 03:10 AM
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Turnings and Ages are different. Fain is unique to this age, but it's unlikely he is unique to this Turning.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
Turnings and Ages are different. Fain is unique to this age, but it's unlikely he is unique to this Turning.
That would mean he is part of the pattern, woven before and to be woven again. The "side-stepped the Pattern" comment seems to suggest otherwise.

As well as another comment from another signing where RJ conveyed "That Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably"

Last edited by finnssss; 02-01-2012 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:00 AM
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Based on Moridin's logic and reasoning to join the Shadow, it is impossible for Rand to turn him to the light.

Unless Rand is able to provide a nifty piece of inductive reasoning in aMoL - his own argument for not just tearing the whole world apart was 'Love' in that 'a chance to love again' is a belief - it is faith, and blind faith at that. (Unless, like Rand, you are a man who gets women like I get backaches.)

He says it quite simply himself an emotion and 'a chance' - a gamble removes any pure logic; emotion removes any nature of an analytical reason. His argument is a priori as he does have previous experience in this matter; but for Moridin - a man of pure reason, this would not be enough.

Moridin made his decision to join the Shadow using what I assume as a lovely piece of inductive reasoning - mostly prop calc, I can see Moridin loving prop calc... the sadistic b... - I mostly get this from his actions as well as the titles of his books. He was a Philosopher focused on the greater meaning of existance as a person - and at a pattern level.

What makes Moridin eleventybillion times less likely to go to the light is that he joined the Shadow on the basis that the Shadow only needs to win once. This isn't a man that sold his soul for immortality/ a kingdom/ because the other teachers laughed at him.
This is a man who signed away his entire pattern level existence. By reasoning this out - it isn't a leap for him to realise that he probably did this before - (I'm sure the DO would have confirmed it, in a way that I hope was like: 'Hey man, haven't seen your sorry ass soul in a couple of ages - how you been?").

Long story short - for a man who signed his thread away on the basis of a win whenever, the possiblity that someone might love him. Not enough... even if those veins were 24k.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:18 AM
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Well, I clearly didn't expect RJ to launch a character out of the blue that could love Moridin and make him return on the Light Side of the Force.
As I said, I have some affection to this character and that's what motivated this topic.
As many of you I highly doubt he'll change sides, but it is one hell of naive hope that's on my mind for a very long time ^^
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
Based on Moridin's logic and reasoning to join the Shadow, it is impossible for Rand to turn him to the light.

Unless Rand is able to provide a nifty piece of inductive reasoning in aMoL - his own argument for not just tearing the whole world apart was 'Love' in that 'a chance to love again' is a belief - it is faith, and blind faith at that. (Unless, like Rand, you are a man who gets women like I get backaches.)

He says it quite simply himself an emotion and 'a chance' - a gamble removes any pure logic; emotion removes any nature of an analytical reason. His argument is a priori as he does have previous experience in this matter; but for Moridin - a man of pure reason, this would not be enough.

Moridin made his decision to join the Shadow using what I assume as a lovely piece of inductive reasoning - mostly prop calc, I can see Moridin loving prop calc... the sadistic b... - I mostly get this from his actions as well as the titles of his books. He was a Philosopher focused on the greater meaning of existance as a person - and at a pattern level.

What makes Moridin eleventybillion times less likely to go to the light is that he joined the Shadow on the basis that the Shadow only needs to win once. This isn't a man that sold his soul for immortality/ a kingdom/ because the other teachers laughed at him.
This is a man who signed away his entire pattern level existence. By reasoning this out - it isn't a leap for him to realise that he probably did this before - (I'm sure the DO would have confirmed it, in a way that I hope was like: 'Hey man, haven't seen your sorry ass soul in a couple of ages - how you been?").

Long story short - for a man who signed his thread away on the basis of a win whenever, the possiblity that someone might love him. Not enough... even if those veins were 24k.
Moridin's logic is based on the premise that the DO can't be killed though.
He seems to be the only one that knows that if the DO wins, everything ends and that's what he wants, a close to his endless cycle.


It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?

If you believe that the DO can be killed, that makes Moridin's logic flawed and opens up the possibility of his "returning to the light".

If you do not believe the DO can be killed, then Moridin is right and nothing changes for him.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:36 AM
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Well, there is the second question: can the DO win?
If your answer to that is a clear no, then turning to the Shadow wouldn't have all that many eternally lasting benefits, so then it might make sense to support the Light too.

Of course, we don't actually know that it is impossible for him to win, so the best thing would be to hedge your bets and go with whatever side at that time is making you the best offer. Which, in turn, seems to mean that Asmodean was the most rational character in the whole series by far.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Abbaaddon View Post
Well, I clearly didn't expect RJ to launch a character out of the blue that could love Moridin and make him return on the Light Side of the Force.
As I said, I have some affection to this character and that's what motivated this topic.
As many of you I highly doubt he'll change sides, but it is one hell of naive hope that's on my mind for a very long time ^^
It's not a naive hope at all - there are always possibilities out there. For example, I knew at some point we had to get the 'Dark Rand' story arc, but never did I think it was going to end with him on the cusp of cracking the world in two.

He's a favorite of mine also - especially in regards from his 'transformation' from generic Head on Fire bad guy into a logic driven, so-crazy-he-is-more-sane-than-us-all Philosopher.


Quote:
Originally Posted by finnssss
Moridin's logic is based on the premise that the DO can't be killed though.
He seems to be the only one that knows that if the DO wins, everything ends and that's what he wants, a close to his endless cycle.

It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?

If you believe that the DO can be killed, that makes Moridin's logic flawed and opens up the possibility of his "returning to the light".

If you do not believe the DO can be killed, then Moridin is right and nothing changes for him.
But it becomes moot when you realise that if the Dark One can indeed be killed. I doubt that Rand is going to run off and tell the Nae'blis.

If he does, in an unanticipated need to turn him back to Elan, he runs the risk of just displaying his winning hand to Moridin... and with him being kinda crazy and all that, letting the Shadow know whats coming up.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
It comes down to one question here...can the DO be killed or can't he?
No, he can't. That would kill the circularity of the Wheel. Multiple Ages hinge on the current state of the Dark One. To kill the Dark One would result in a completely different set of Ages (or a single everlasting Age, I suppose, which was an older theory).

Since we're going with quotes:

RJ -
Quote:
I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.
The lack of the Dark One wouldn't be a "minor change you can only see close up".

Quote:
Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]
There are also quotes about how the pattern will repeat unless the DO breaks free -- if it was possible to kill him, you'd think that would be provided as another alternative. But I couldn't find anything concise enough to want to copy-paste it here.

Quotes are pulled from the interview database.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:28 PM
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@Dajoran: I don't know how to explain it, but since he returned as Moridin he acted very strangely compared to the other Forsaken. He is not driven by ambition because, I think, he knows what will happen once the DO breaks free. He does not seek to rule some kingdoms- at least no as openly as Rhavin, Sammael and co did.
He does not seem to be driven by hate either, so that lets me with the feeling there is something odd about him. Not to mention the fact that the DO brought him back to life AND named him Nae'Blis, whereas for the other, a punition followed very quickly the reincarnation.
There is one theory I read in the fan fictions in which Rand managed to counter the DO's evil by opposing him Fain's. In a way that could mean defeating him, without killing him but ensuring a certain safety for the future turns of the wheel, if we measured Fain's evil at its proper scale.
As I said before, it is still very confused but with your comments, I think I'm gettint to something more precise =)
 


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