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  #1  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:00 PM
Toss the dice Toss the dice is offline
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Default Mat and Elayne

While Mat has saved the Supergirls' bacon more than one time, it has suddenly struck me how much Mat has done for Elayne in particular, concerning things of a direct nature.


- Delivered Elayne's letter to her mother.

- Overheard Rahvin talking to Gaebril about cutting Elayne's head off, and setting out for Tear. Culminated in Mat saving Elayne from the dungeon in the Stone.

- Ran the White Lions out of Andor.

- Saved Elayne from the gholam in Ebou Dar.

- Helped Elayne and Nynaeve bargain with the Sea Folk.

- Let Elayne borrow the foxhead medallion for three days, allowing her to copy it and helping to save her life.

- Rid Caemlyn of the gholam.

- Gave Elayne the Dragon technology.

- Gave Elayne partial/temporary charge of the Band of the Red Hand, helping her gain Cairhien.


Am I missing any? I'm not counting anything indirect Mat has done, because that would be a very difficult and long list to compile. You know, it's kind of funny. Saving the world aside, what has Rand directly done for Elayne? And no, I don't count mutual things.

- Killed Rahvin. This kind of counts.

- Gave her Caemlyn. Or at least would have, if Elayne had not insisted on gaining the throne herself.

- Gave her a much easier time gaining Cairhien.

That's all I can really think of. And none of them really count 100%, since they all had to be done anyway and Elayne was basically just given the scraps. I'm not bashing Rand at all, and he has a great excuse as the DR, not to mention a lack of time being around her. I just find it amusing how many things Mat has done for Elayne and Rand so few.
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  #2  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:10 PM
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This is why some of us think Mat and Elayne would have made a much better couple than who they actually ended up with.
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  #3  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice View Post
....what has Rand directly done for Elayne? And no, I don't count mutual things.

- Killed Rahvin. This kind of counts.

- Gave her Caemlyn. Or at least would have, if Elayne had not insisted on gaining the throne herself.
-Knocked her up. (not mutual technically, as he isn't pregnant ...)

While this may seem trite, Elayne keeps using the fact that her babies will be born healthy to act like she is invincible. So, we could also say that Rand:

-Gave Elayne license to act like a bad ass while with child.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:34 PM
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-Knocked her up. (not mutual technically, as he isn't pregnant ...)

While this may seem trite, Elayne keeps using the fact that her babies will be born healthy to act like she is invincible. So, we could also say that Rand:

-Gave Elayne license to act like a bad ass while with child.
I disagree pretty much all the way around. Unsure whether you're joking about the knocking up not being mutual, but I generally didn't count that stuff, as it concerns their intimacy (and so mutual-ness). I suppose you could count it as giving Elayne an heir(s) though.

I disagree that he gave Elayne a license to act like a bad ass with child. First off, it was Elayne that stupidly gave HERSELF a license to act like a bad ass, even after Birgitte explained the foolishness of it. Secondly, even if I did count this as valid, I would give it to Min before I would give it to Rand. It was her viewing, not his. Her children were merely a variable/condiiton in that viewing.
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Last edited by Toss the dice; 02-03-2012 at 01:37 PM.
  #5  
Old 02-03-2012, 02:32 PM
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I disagree pretty much all the way around. Unsure whether you're joking about the knocking up not being mutual, but I generally didn't count that stuff, as it concerns their intimacy (and so mutual-ness). I suppose you could count it as giving Elayne an heir(s) though.

I disagree that he gave Elayne a license to act like a bad ass with child. First off, it was Elayne that stupidly gave HERSELF a license to act like a bad ass, even after Birgitte explained the foolishness of it. Secondly, even if I did count this as valid, I would give it to Min before I would give it to Rand. It was her viewing, not his. Her children were merely a variable/condiiton in that viewing.
I did mean it tongue in cheek.

You are absolutely right that Rand hasn't done much for Elayne. The evidence that Mat has done more for Elayne than Rand has is strong enough to support a theory that Min's vision of three women sharing Rand could already be fulfilled. I don't think there is any pattern reading (Min) or prophecy that says that she can't move on to someone new (especially if he dies or starts using Moridin's body, etc). We know her mother was able to move on without much issue, though the men didn't fare as well (murder, death warrant, banishment, and balefire).

Mat, however, is a different issue. So far as prophecy, he has already fulfilled it and may conceivably have no further obligation to Tuon (though it looks like it will tie into the last book to some extent). But there are those pesky Mat and Tuon outrigger novels ... which indicate they probably stay together.

Basically, if it weren't for the quotes and rumors about the outriggers, I would say that it would be entirely possible that Mat could end up with Elayne.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2012, 02:42 PM
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I don't think there is any pattern reading (Min) or prophecy that says that she can't move on to someone new (especially if he dies or starts using Moridin's body, etc). We know her mother was able to move on without much issue, though the men didn't fare as well (murder, death warrant, banishment, and balefire).
Aye, the Lady Elayne promoted that morsel Guybon to captain quite abruptly - I hesitate to say unseemly haste . . .

And it is well known she is with child by that Hanlon fellow.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:25 PM
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You are forgetting the awesome gift Rand sent Elayne - the captured sul'dam and damane.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:37 PM
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Why, exactly, does Rand have to "do" anything for Elayne? They're not allies, or business partners!

And those who think Elayne and Mat would make a great couple... by that token, so would Egwene and Rand, or Min and Perrin. All of which is meaningless in the face of who they actually fall for.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:23 AM
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Why, exactly, does Rand have to "do" anything for Elayne? They're not allies, or business partners!
Agreed. If anyone wants to get into that kind of game, what the hell has Elayne done for Rand other than bang his brains out and publicly (and privately) bash him for saving her country from a Forsaken?

And, for the record, I think Mat and Elayne would make a terrible couple. Elayne acts like a douche around him, treating him like he's her "subject" or servant and is always manipulating him or trying to get control of him and his bloody army. Honestly, most of the time I don't dislike Elayne, but put her around Mat, Rand, Perrin, or have her even think of Rand, and I want someone to smash her face into pulp.

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And those who think Elayne and Mat would make a great couple... by that token, so would Egwene and Rand, or Min and Perrin. All of which is meaningless in the face of who they actually fall for.
Meh. It's all subjective, really. I think Mat and Elayne would be awful together (worse than Mat and Tuon), would not want Rand cursed with Egwene as a significant other for even five minutes (the man has enough pain and aggravation, after all, he doesn't need a woman who thinks he should never use his head and act like her mindless, obedient slave), and I have never heard anyone suggest Min with Perrin...that is...interesting, but Perrin is perfect with Faile. And Min is the only one of Rand's three women who actually loves him, in my opinion.
  #10  
Old 02-04-2012, 01:17 AM
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And, for the record, I think Mat and Elayne would make a terrible couple. Elayne acts like a douche around him, treating him like he's her "subject" or servant and is always manipulating him or trying to get control of him and his bloody army. Honestly, most of the time I don't dislike Elayne, but put her around Mat, Rand, Perrin, or have her even think of Rand, and I want someone to smash her face into pulp.
It wouldn't be the first time that RJ's played out that relationship dynamic/trope into a romance, albeit rather more creepily, in other books. Theoretically, yeah, it should make for a terrible couple, unless they realize they're madly in love/lust and stop acting like 'tards toward each other.

Not something I'm really interested in seeing, though, as both characters are already nicely rounded out with flaws/strengths without adding something like that into it. And at this point, unless Mat has a thing for pregnant women, we wouldn't see it before the end of AMoL anyway, likely.
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  #11  
Old 02-04-2012, 03:15 AM
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Technically, Mat chased the White Lions out of Cairhien, not out of Andor.

And he also thumped her brothers, teaching Galad some humility in the process.

Rand sort of volunteered to let Elayne test her nursing and bandaging skills on him. That seemed to make her quite happy.

Rand also gave her an opportunity to get snippy with Galad and order Gawyn around, two more things that tend to make her happy.

And he gave her what had been meant to be an artifical flower.
  #12  
Old 02-04-2012, 09:46 AM
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I think I actually like the idea of Mat and Elayne as BFFs than I do as lovers. It certainly seems more entertaining; just having soulmates end up together is boring, but making them very good friends adds a level of tension to their other relationships that wouldn't otherwise be there.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:02 AM
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Overheard Rahvin talking to Gaebril about cutting Elayne's head off, and setting out for Tear. Culminated in Mat saving Elayne from the dungeon in the Stone
Ain't Gaebril and Rhavin the same person ?
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:02 PM
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Ain't Gaebril and Rhavin the same person ?
Oh God, here we go. Real vs Construct all over again.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:50 PM
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Lol sorry, they are the same person. I remember thinking "Gaebril and Comar" but then I debated for a half-second whether to use Gaebril or Rahvin, and Rahvin won out. Naturally, the end result (due to my internal half-second debate) became "Gaebril and Rahvin" instead of "Rahvin and Comar." Make sense?
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:58 PM
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Why, exactly, does Rand have to "do" anything for Elayne? They're not allies, or business partners!
You reek of bias. I could explain even further than I have, regarding this topic, but if you refused to understand what I was getting at in my original post, it would be pointless. Since zealous bias is in my opinion slightly more respectful than the alternative, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with that.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice View Post
You reek of bias. I could explain even further than I have, regarding this topic, but if you refused to understand what I was getting at in my original post, it would be pointless. Since zealous bias is in my opinion slightly more respectful than the alternative, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with that.
You reek of a person who doesn't even know what bias means, thinks its a cool sounding word that'll make people think you're clever, and use it...
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:33 PM
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what the hell has Elayne done for Rand other than bang his brains out
I spent 5 minutes trying to figure out when she had hit him, I was going over the story trying to remember and when I got to where she isd preggers I thuoght I must of missed it and then it clicked

Quote:
I think I actually like the idea of Mat and Elayne as BFFs than I do as lovers. It certainly seems more entertaining; just having soulmates end up together is boring, but making them very good friends adds a level of tension to their other relationships that wouldn't otherwise be there.
I think they would kill each other if they ended up lovers but to have them as best friends works for me. Elayne can be the best friend he invites over that his wife doesnt approve of, if only she smoked cheap cigars and had a motorbike she would be the perfect old college buddy for Tuon to hate
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Last edited by confused at birth; 02-04-2012 at 01:54 PM.
  #19  
Old 02-04-2012, 02:15 PM
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I spent 5 minutes trying to figure out when she had hit him, I was going over the story trying to remember and when I got to where she isd preggers I thuoght I must of missed it and then it clicked



I think they would kill each other if they ended up lovers but to have them as best friends works for me. Elayne can be the best friend he invites over that his wife doesnt approve of, if only she smoked cheap cigars and had a motorbike she would be the perfect old college buddy for Tuon to hate
Plus the fact that RJ has placed Tuon and Mat's descendants into a position similar to the Royal Family of England prior to the loss of the French territories. As Kings they ranked equal with the King of France, but as Dukes of Normandy they were vassals of the King of France, and thus inferior to him. Mat and Tuon's descendants are in similar positions; the Seanchan Empress would probably be thought to outrank the Queen of Andor (though perhaps not, or not by much) but as Andoran subjects Mat's children would be inferiors of Elayne, unless he renounced his Andoran citizenship. Elayne could make this even stronger by enobling Mat. In fact, it would be one way to get around the problem of her being marath'damane (whilst not dealing with the larger damane problem); if Tuon attempted to have her collared and her titles forfeited, her actions in enobling Mat would also be undone, which would probably cause her some difficulties, not least with her husband. Of course, collaring Elayne would cause their marriage to collapse in the space of seconds after Mat found out anyway.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:06 PM
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You reek of a person who doesn't even know what bias means, thinks its a cool sounding word that'll make people think you're clever, and use it...
That's probably the worst comeback I've ever heard. In this case I would give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to you not being serious, but not only would that completely negate and make your post pointless, but you actually do seem serious.

Usually when people dig holes for themselves during discussions or debates, it is a gradual thing and the other party had something to do with it. I can honestly say that your current hole-digging was all you and astonishingly sudden. I almost feel like a nature explorer stumbling upon some exotic and extremely rare species out in the wild, one that I never expected to see.

Thank you for the special treat.
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Last edited by Toss the dice; 02-04-2012 at 03:08 PM.
 


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