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  #1  
Old 02-05-2012, 04:11 PM
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Default Mora = Nakomi?

Suppose it sounds silly, but anyway here goes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC ch 15
"I heard of such a thing," Bair said, "when I was young and just beginning to learn. Mora, the Wise One of Colrada Hold, trained me, and she said that if the emotion was very strong, love or hate so great it left room for nothing else, you could be drawn in merely by letting yourself be aware of the other’s dream."
"I have never heard anything like that," Melaine said. Amys merely looked doubtful.
"Nor have I from any save Mora," Bair told them, "but she was a remarkable woman. It was said she was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake’s bite, yet she looked as young as either of you. I was only a girl, but I remember her well. She knew many things, and could channel strongly. Other Wise Ones came from every clan to learn from her. I think love so great, or hate so, is very rare, but she said this happened to her twice, once with the first man she married, and once with a rival for her third husband’s interest."
‘Three hundred?" Egwene exclaimed, a soft knee-high boot half-laced. Surely even Aes Sedai did not live that long.
"I said that it was said," Bair replied, smiling. "Some women age more slowly than others, like Amys here, and when it is a woman like Mora, tales are born. Someday I will tell you the story of how Mora moved a mountain. Supposedly, at least."
"Another day?" Melaine said a touch too politely. Plainly she still smarted over whatever had happened in Bael’s dream, and over the fact the others knew. "I heard every tale of Mora when I was a child; I have them all by heart, I think. If Egwene ever finishes dressing, we must see her fed."
Now there's no point to this theory if Mora is dead as this quote seems to make rather obvious. Or does it? First note that Mora's death was sudden and anticlimactic - a 300 year old legend just suddenly dies. If anything, RJ isn't known for such anticlimaxes and its really hard to see any reason the pattern would want to end the life of a strong, skilled channeler just before the start of the series. In fact, the opposite would suit the forces of light and the pattern much better.

Secondly the manner of death.

Quote:
Look what was here before us," Aviendha,said he let a meek-faced white-robed woman take Jeade'en.
She held up a brown snake, dead, but as thick as his forearm and nearly three paces long. The bloodsnake took
its name from the effect of its bite, turning the blood to jelly in minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
It sometimes
seemed that there must be more poisonOus things -snakes, lizards, spiders, plants-in the Waste than in the rest
of the world combined.
While the bloodsnake is lethal, its rather careless for any aiel to fall victim of a predator that's so large and so noteworthy. Much a less one who can channel. To cap it up, she doesn't sound like the kind of person that gets much free time alone if the comments about other WOs coming to learn from her is anything to go by.

Third, there's the healing factor both within and without. With her OP strength, she should last long enough for her to be healed unless she was very far from anyone at the time. And while the WOs may be careful about channeling in front of others, I doubt they'd hesitate in this instance.

Fourth, Mora was a dreamer. We've the WOs anticipating danger before it occurs and Mora taught Bair so maybe she's even better at this than they are. At least her legend like status argues that she does.

Fifth, channelers tend to have sharpers eyes, senses and reflexes than others. Combine this fact with her being an aiel and a dreamer... One could be forgiven for thinking the snake must have bitten her asleep in her tent. Any other scenario raises questions.

While these reasons don't prove she didn't die, what they do is to make the death sound even cheaper. And therefore more anticlimactic and more suspicious.

So I'll go on to motives. Why would Mora want to fake her own death? I've already mentioned one reason: she was a living legend that was the cynosure of all eyes much like Cadsuane. And she likely had little if any privacy at all. She might have had reason to require such privacy. As a dreamer, it isn't too far fetched to see Mora knowing about some of the events that were to take place.

Note that Mora taught Bair, a non channeler. So Bair maybe between 50-70years old and may have begun her training at probably 20years old. Meaning that Mora couldn't have died more than 50 years ago. If she were alive now as I'm proposing, then she'll be about 350, hardly any older than she was before.

Maybe I should add that Mora's "youth" as being referred to by Bair indicates she was the equivalent of prime child bearing age i.e 25 to 35 or simply 30years take or give 5years as at the time of her death. So Mora's life expectancy would be about 700 years or more.

So being a dreamer and possibly more skilled than the current WOs, how much might she have forseen of the future? Very likely a lot. There's no possible future that she would glimpse at that point that would not involve strange things happening all round including the aiel war and the coming of Rand and the LB. Or even Tigraine's coming. That she wouldn't see anything is a very poor bet indeed.

And of course we also know that Ishamael had been among the aiel so he might have set up a "black ajah" among the aiel. If Mora dreamed about DF WOs, I think she'd want solitary very quickly.

And finally there's what links her to Nakomi:

(a)Avi's encounter with Nakomi seemed to have occured in TAR. Two things confirm this - the coals and Nakomi's "stealth". So Nakomi has to be a dreamwalker.

(b)none of the other aiel dreamwalkers we know need to approach Avi this way. They can meet her and discuss this in the real world.

(c)Nakomi confessed she had reason to hide some things. Very likely its linked the reason she took off for solitary in the first place.

So that's it. Somewhat circumstantial, but it certainly adds up IMO. So over to you guys.

E:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM
Aviendha glanced to the sides. Was this an ambush? Or was this
woman a spectet? One of the dead walking? Why hadn't Aviendha heard
her approach?
"Greetings, Wise One," the woman said, bowing het head. "Might I
share water with you? I am traveling far, and saw your fire." The woman
had furrowed skin, and she could not channel—Aviendha could sense that
easily.
"I am not yet a Wise One," Aviendha said, wary. "I currently take my
second path into Rhuidean."
"Then you w i l l soon find much honor," the woman said. " I am Nakomi.
I promise that I mean you no harm, child."
Suddenly, Aviendha felt foolish. The woman had approached without
weapons drawn. Aviendha had been disttacted by her thoughts; that was
why she hadn't heard Nakomi approach. "Of course, please."
"
Quote:
"The wetlands are not glorious," Aviendha said. "They are dangerous.
They make us weak."
Nakomi frowned.
Who is this woman? It was not unusual to find Aiel traveling the
Waste; even children learned to protect themselves. But should Nakomi
not be traveling with friends, family? She did not wear the clothing of a
Wise One, but there was something about her . . .
Nakomi stirred the tea, then repositioned Aviendha's shellback, placing
it over the coals to cook it more evenly. From inside her pack, she drew
forth several deepearth roots. Aviendha's mother had always cooked those.
Nakomi placed them in a small ceramic baking box, then slid this into the
coals. Aviendha hadn't realized the fire had grown so warm. Where had all
those coals come from?
"You seem troubled," Nakomi
Quote:
"People of the Dragon," Nakomi said, sipping her tea. "That is what we are. Serving the Dragon was the point behind everything we did. Our customs,
our raids on each other, our harsh training
I donj't see how Nakomi knew about the people of the dragon thing so intimately if she wasn't a WO.
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Last edited by greatwolf; 02-06-2012 at 01:59 AM. Reason: Add quote, bold.
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2012, 04:31 PM
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Main objection: the theory would be a lot stronger if Mora had been mentioned on more than that one occasion. As it is, I like your thinking, but the reaction of most people would be a decided "who?".

It might not be that uncommon for Aiel to die from the various nasty beasts in the Waste; that would explain why Nakomi is notable for having lived to 300, since you'd expect non-oathbound WO channellers to live a little longer than that.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:09 PM
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This is better than most of the ideas i've seen roaming around. Better than a manifestation theory i read before, or the Verin one. Im not saying verin never did anything bad, just that theres a great deal people attribute to her when its unexplained.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Main objection: the theory would be a lot stronger if Mora had been mentioned on more than that one occasion. As it is, I like your thinking, but the reaction of most people would be a decided "who?".

It might not be that uncommon for Aiel to die from the various nasty beasts in the Waste; that would explain why Nakomi is notable for having lived to 300, since you'd expect non-oathbound WO channellers to live a little longer than that.
Both noted. First, BS mentioned a little plot detail that would play a part in the ending. This could be another such detail and we know RJ loved hiding things from us. So casual fans might say "who" but I doubt you guys will. Besides, I think its a lot better than a character that appears in the 13th book without any plot history behind her. This tells us why she's been hidden all along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fin
This is better than most of the ideas i've seen roaming around
puurrr. Thanks.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:49 AM
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If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:

Quote:
Someday I will tell you the story of how Mora moved a mountain. Supposedly, at least."
"Another day?" Melaine said a touch too politely. Plainly she still smarted over whatever had happened in Bael’s dream, and over the fact the others knew. "I heard every tale of Mora when I was a child; I have them all by heart
(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:



(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?
Somehow, I hadn't considered that Nakomi might be a HOTH on a mission. I'll need to reread that scene now.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:35 AM
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She frowns, likes tea, and rambles. Verin.

Do the Aiel even drink tea? I'd think they would never have had enough water to acquire the taste for it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Do the Aiel even drink tea? I'd think they would never have had enough water to acquire the taste for it.
Maybe, and you're obviously right:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 36, Misdirections
He pulled the kerchief from his head and wiped the sweat off of his face, then tied it back. The heat and the eternal sun in his eyes were beginning to get to him. Was there no such thing as shade in this whole land? Sweat stung his wounds. He had refused Healing the night before, when Moiraine wakened him after he had finally gotten to sleep. A few cuts were a small price to avoid having the Power used on you, and the Wise Ones' filthy-tasting tea had settled his headache. Well, after a fashion, anyway. What else ailed him, he did not think Moiraine could do anything about, and he had no intention of telling her until he understood it himself. If then. He didn't even want to think of it.
Whether or not Aiel themselves drink the stuff too I haven't looked up.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
If it is Mora - she mightn't need to be alive to have met Aviendha in TAR. That is - if someone is famous enough to have stories floating around them:



(This might have been bandied about before but...) the idea that she could be a HotH is not discounted, no?
HotH are bound by laws they dare not break and Birgitte has been tossed out, so it can't be her. And it takes more than stories to be a HotH, we'll need to know the type of things she did to know if she'll even be considered a hero.

The other thought that occured to me is that if Mora wanted to vanish, she really only needs to know Illusion (mirror of mists) and how to mask her ability. Once she finds someone bitten by a bloodsnake (or whatever) she can lay a weave on the corpse and invert it.

But it'll be difficult for her to remain among the WOs without masking her strength since women so strong are few and inevitable the subject of attention. But with masking and illusion, she could be anyone anytime. Even a weakling.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
But it'll be difficult for her to remain among the WOs without masking her strength since women so strong are few and inevitable the subject of attention. But with masking and illusion, she could be anyone anytime. Even a weakling.
And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:40 PM
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And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?
Was thinking the exact same things...
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:04 PM
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And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?
Because she's a Darkfriend. hahahaha...
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:53 PM
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HotH are bound by laws they dare not break and Birgitte has been tossed out, so it can't be her. And it takes more than stories to be a HotH, we'll need to know the type of things she did to know if she'll even be considered a hero.
Obviously it isn't Birgitte. But what Birgitte proves is that even though there are 'precepts', there is nothing beyond this law that prevents them from interacting with people who are in TAR.

Actually, if Aviendha was in T'A'R... she didn't know... which increases our chances that it could be a Hero; based off of the info we have from Birgitte concerning the precepts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birgitte
According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod
Kinda important that there is a distinction contained therein, no?


QUICK EDIT

If it was a HotH, I believe it would be one who is constanly born into the Aiel. This would explain her knowledge, as well as her influencing Aviendha to avoid a certain type of future. A future she would know about if she can remember the fourth age from past turnings?
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:15 PM
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Obviously it isn't Birgitte. But what Birgitte proves is that even though there are 'precepts', there is nothing beyond this law that prevents them from interacting with people who are in TAR.
There were certainly consequences to Birgitte breaking the precepts.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:26 PM
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There were certainly consequences to Birgitte breaking the precepts.
Of course, but Mog wasn't her punishment for her breaking the precepts.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:04 PM
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There are a good number of hints that she's in TAR or just having some sort of vision quest. The fact that the woman makes her food exactly the way Avi's mother made it, the sudden disappearance with no evidence of ever existing, etc etc. Given the certain looseness in the Pattern, you could argue that it was perhaps the literal "ghost" of Mora or some other Aiel.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
And how/ where would she have learned these things? Why would she not have passed them on to the other channeling Wise Ones amongst the Aiel (who share all of those tricks)? To what end this grand subterfuge?
???

I guess same place everyone else learnt from. Initiative. Or you can call it pattern tweaking. I don't know if she knows the weaves or not, but if there are tales about her moving mountains, then this would be a short walk in the park.

Cadsuane knew masking and certainly didn't pass it on. Plus Cadsuane was taught by "a toothless wilder" so Mora being an aiel wilder doesn't mean she's igmorant.

However the biggest plus as I see it is that she's a dreamer. She might actually be learning things by instinct! It may be the same process that allowed Egwene to discover Travelling and Cuendillar. With a dreamer, its easy for the pattern to drop ideas!

Also she can probably learn a fair bit by spying in the world of dreams. A peek in Cadsuane's dreams fopr instance...

As to subterfuge, I think I've already answered that. If she had dreams/foretelling concerning TLB or an aiel BA, it would make sense to keep her cards close to her chest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajoran
Kinda important that there is a distinction contained therein, no?
Its probably meant to be interpreted as "you can only speak to those who think its a normal dream" rather than whether they can distinguish TAR from a personal dreamscape.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Its probably meant to be interpreted as "you can only speak to those who think its a normal dream" rather than whether they can distinguish TAR from a personal dreamscape.
Is this not what I inferred? The point is, Aviendha didn't realise she was dreaming. So she obviously didn't realise she was in TAR. Which does not violate the precept.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:15 AM
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Not that this is hugely important, but Cadsuane learned to mask her ability from Nynaeve. She didn't know it on her own.

As for the original point... its interesting, and one of the more possible theories I've read about this.

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Old 02-07-2012, 05:16 AM
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She frowns, likes tea, and rambles. Verin.
Not to mention the similarity in how she nudges.
Old ground, I know.
Really interesting new lights in this thread atm.
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