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  #1  
Old 02-15-2012, 04:51 PM
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Default Oaths, Circles, and Black Ajah

Don't know if this has already been asked.


If an AS links with a Wise one and passes control over to the WO.
Can the WO then use the power as a weapon with the added strength of the AS?
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2012, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
If an AS links with a Wise one and passes control over to the WO.
Can the WO then use the power as a weapon with the added strength of the AS?
Yes.
But if the AS thinks that is going to happen, then she wouldn't be able to pass over control.
  #3  
Old 02-16-2012, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Yes.
But if the AS thinks that is going to happen, then she wouldn't be able to pass over control.
It would depend on whether she felt that would be an example of her using the Power as a weapon or not. I'm inclined to agree that she wouldn't, because (1) she would be "using" the Power within the link and (2) it would be being used as a weapon, but there is a bit of wiggle room there. Of course, AS tend not to use their wiggle room very well with respect to this oath.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:47 AM
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But when Neald went and made a weapon with the OP, he specifically asked the WOs for a circle. He did not ask the AS, and there is the implication (though not definite proof) that the AS wouldn't have helped with that because of their Oath.
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Old 02-16-2012, 08:25 AM
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I thought more like that the AS was duped into a link and passed control over before they realised what was happening.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:28 AM
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In which case, Gonzo's answer is accurate. Yes, her share of the OP could be used as a weapon (or to create one).
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2012, 10:09 AM
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From a Q&A:

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Shannan Lieb
Question
One question was for a role-playing group, and they asked, "Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?"
Robert Jordan
He answered that no, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
From a Q&A:

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Shannan Lieb
Question
One question was for a role-playing group, and they asked, "Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?"
Robert Jordan
He answered that no, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.
If that is the case then I would like to think the answer to Tomp's question is that if an Aes Sedai was led to believe that she was joining a circle for benign purposes she could join, but if the circle then turned into a Weapon of sorts her portion of the one power would snap away from the circle.

Kind of like how Galina's tongue freezes mid sentence when Therava adds a new rule to her oath. The flow of One Power would freeze or seize up from the affected Aes Sedai.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:40 PM
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Since Aes Sedai in a forced ring like the a dam creates can't be made to use the OP as a weapon, I think if a Wise One in a circle use the OP as a weapon suddenly, the Ads Sedai would begin choking and die.
  #10  
Old 02-16-2012, 03:01 PM
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Perhaps the Aes Sedai might build up saidar but not release it to the circle, causing it to go out of control, like Rand did at the beginning of TDR:

Quote:
Dragon Reborn CHAPTER: 5 - Nightmares Walking
"Rand," Perrin began, but Rand cut him off. "Do you know what I did during the fight?" Still staring into the distance, Rand addressed the night. "Nothing! Nothing useful. At first, when I reached out for the True Source, I couldn't touch it, couldn't grasp it. It kept sliding away. Then, when I finally had hold of it, I was going to burn them all, burn all the Trollocs and Fades. And all I could do was set fire to some trees." He shook with silent laughter, then stopped with a pained grimace. "Saidin filled me till I thought I'd explode like fireworks. I had to channel it somewhere, get rid of it before it burned me up, and I found myself thinking about pulling the mountain down and burying the Trollocs. I almost tried. That was my fight. Not against the Trollocs. Against myself. To keep from burying us all under the mountain. "
Or maybe she will get burned out. It would be nice to see an example of this in the books so that we know
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  #11  
Old 02-16-2012, 03:09 PM
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This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)
The battle at Shadar Logoth would have justified any oath breaking due to the extreme danger of all the Aes Sedai in circles, such as Sarene and Corele facing off against Demandred.

The only Aes Sedai in the circle channeling the Bowl of the Winds were Nynaeve and Elayne, since none of the others were strong enough. Since they weren't oathbound, and the Bowl was not exactly a weapon, this is a moot point.

The circles during the bubble of evil scourge at Salidar would have been used for protection while in mortal danger.

Likewise the circles formed while fighting off the Seanchan at the White Tower.

Can't think of any other examples off the top of my head.
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
The battle at Shadar Logoth would have justified any oath breaking due to the extreme danger of all the Aes Sedai in circles, such as Sarene and Corele facing off against Demandred.

The only Aes Sedai in the circle channeling the Bowl of the Winds were Nynaeve and Elayne, since none of the others were strong enough. Since they weren't oathbound, and the Bowl was not exactly a weapon, this is a moot point.

The circles during the bubble of evil scourge at Salidar would have been used for protection while in mortal danger.

Likewise the circles formed while fighting off the Seanchan at the White Tower.

Can't think of any other examples off the top of my head.
You're assuming that Black oaths also demand 'danger'?
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:59 PM
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No, he's saying that the example that we know of a Black Sister leading a circle is not applicable, as the situation in which the cirle was being led was one of total danger, therefore the point is moot.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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No Ishara, you misunderstand me.

Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point). Now let's say that a handful of Black sisters knew or at least believed that the Seanchan assault was a Fosaken action. Any circle they were in might have strange properties, ie a lightsided leader might not be able to touch to'raken with the Power, or whatnot.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
This is interesting. I wonder if there are any cases of a member of the BA being in a circle that was led by a lightsider, and the leader noticing unusual anomalies that would let us reverse engineer the Black oaths.

I dont think that Elayne did anything with her circle when she was captured in Caemlyn.

Elza led the Callandor circle at SL.

Was Careane in the Bowl's circle? I don't recall. (and would it matter if she was? cluelessness/faith in its futility may make this point moot)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
You're assuming that Black oaths also demand 'danger'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
No, he's saying that the example that we know of a Black Sister leading a circle is not applicable, as the situation in which the cirle was being led was one of total danger, therefore the point is moot.
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths, and my response was that the situation at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing did not apply since all the sisters were in mortal danger. So that would not be a good situation to winnow out who could allow a circle to be used outside its normal constraints due to having a non-oathbound sister as a participant. Basically, what Ishara said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
No Ishara, you misunderstand me.

Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point). Now let's say that a handful of Black sisters knew or at least believed that the Seanchan assault was a Fosaken action. Any circle they were in might have strange properties, ie a lightsided leader might not be able to touch to'raken with the Power, or whatnot.
This example is saying that a member of the circle is bound by an oath to not allow an action that the normal oaths allow, which is the opposite situation of your presumed original question, which was that a member of the circle is unbound by the oath that normally would be prohibited to the circle due to the 3 oaths. This 2nd situation is more similar to the prohibitions on oathbound damane from breaking the 3rd oath with channeling usage as a weapon.
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  #17  
Old 02-16-2012, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths, and my response was that the situation at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing did not apply since all the sisters were in mortal danger. So that would not be a good situation to winnow out who could allow a circle to be used outside its normal constraints due to having a non-oathbound sister as a participant. Basically, what Ishara said.
Ishara said something entirely beside my point. I'll try to be clearer:
You said-
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 oaths

I meant-
I'm presuming your first question about the lightsider leading a circle with a black ajah sister in it was premised on the circle being used in a situation that would normally break the 3 Black oaths
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:52 PM
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Whether the circle would cease to function or simply not draw Power from the Black sisters, it seems that there would be something in the way of evidence.

Essentially, I wonder if anomalies in the channeling of a circle with bound channelers of mixed allegiances could reveal what the Black oaths are.
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Whether the circle would cease to function or simply not draw Power from the Black sisters, it seems that there would be something in the way of evidence.

Essentially, I wonder if anomalies in the channeling of a circle with bound channelers of mixed allegiances could reveal what the Black oaths are.
Like say a situation... if I were to use an example of the Callandor circle with Elza. (This will contain a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly)

If we take that the circle was active and it wasn't Elza leading the circle but perhaps Cads.

If Elza knew that Dashiva was actually Osan'gar / Aginor.

If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.

Is this what you are saying?
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Old 02-17-2012, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
Like say a situation... if I were to use an example of the Callandor circle with Elza. (This will contain a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly)

If we take that the circle was active and it wasn't Elza leading the circle but perhaps Cads.

If Elza knew that Dashiva was actually Osan'gar / Aginor.

If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.

Is this what you are saying?
Precisely. Not sure what kind of glasses ishara was wearing, it seems I was quite clear.
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