art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:26 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default OP strength rankings

I've been trying to put together a definitive (or as close as possible) OP strength list for some time now. Ok since forever. But there are obvious problems, so i've decided to ask for help. Its meant to list those whose strengths we already know and then we'll try using other hints to figure out who's who among the rest. There'll be alot of unknowns right until the encyclopedia comes out. But since the Alivia/Cyndane match up, i've decided I no longer want to read about a duel between two characters without having an idea what they can do before hand. Especially with TG on the way.

I'll edit the OPost anytime something new is agreed on. Hope you enjoy!

I'm starting with the women since we know more. And just the top echelon for now. We can add the others later. Feel free to add your comments or impressions on the strength of any character(s). Apart from direct quotes on who's stronger than who, I thought we could also use some deductive reasoning from things like gateway size, Slowing and character appearance, and any other clues that might be hiding out there.

The strongest are listed here and quotes follow after.
(1) Lanfear

(2) Sharina Melloy
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoT ch 17
Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anyone in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation.
(3) is unknown but the following are categorized here : a) Alivia b) Cyndane (c) Semirhage (d) Mora. (e) Talaan. I haven't found anyway to determine who's who among these five. We do not know who was next among the forsaken after Lanfear but 3 things point to semirhage, so she's included here but i have no clue as to whether cyndane is stronger. From the accounts given, Talaan is currently only at par with Nynaeve and shouldn'\t be among these except for her potential. It may be that she'll be as strong as alivia when fully developed. Mora is included only on the basis of slowing, a very indirect (and imprecise) method of assessing strength because it can be affected by other factors.

Next (4) is a group consisting of Graendal, Nynaeve, Someryn. And maybe Metarra. There are quotes to show someone or the other is stronger than those listed here. But only those in the above group (3). Since nyn is stronger than viendre, and Someryn might be as well, then i'll rate the three of them as being close to each other.

Then(5), Mesaana, Moghedien, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha,

I suspect here that Moghedien was the weakest of the female forsaken and that it contributed to why she always acted in the shadows as the spider. And she likely killed off the weaker forsaken long ago.

And(6) Nicola, Bodewhin Cauthon,

These two are probably close enough to Egwene to be in the same category. But i placed them here to avoid offense till there's more definite proof.

And finally (7) Cadsuane(Plus Meilyn and Kerean).

A few others are mentioned because they may be able to make this list and displace others even though we have no indication of their strength.


Lanfear and Sharina.


Quote:
WH ch 35
She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.
Alivia

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch 8
makes a good show of it, snarling
at them and cursing them, but. . . ." She shook her head slowly in doubt. "She was collared at thirteen or
fourteen, Elayne, she's not certain which, and she's been damane for four hundred years! And aside from that,
she is ... she's . . . Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve," she finished in a rush. Age, the Kin might
discuss openly, but they had all the Aes Sedai reticence about speaking of strength in the Power. "Do we
dare let her free? A Seanchan wilder who could tear the entire Palace apart?
Quote:
"simple dark blue dress provided by one of the Kinswomen, Alivia did not look at all unusual at
first glance, a woman a little taller than Nynaeve, with fine lines at the corners of her blue eyes and threads
of white in her golden yellow hair. Those blue eyes crackled with intensity, though, like the eyes of a hawk
focused on prey.

Talaan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch
were very much stronger than they—sometimes if you were—and Talaan matched her as closely as made no
difference. That helped keep a satisfied smile from her face. It seemed a very short time ago that sisters had
been startled at her strength and believed that only some of the Forsaken possessed greater. Talaan had not
slowed, yet; she was little more than a child. Fifteen? Maybe younger! The Light alone knew what her
potential was. At least, none of the Windfinders had mentioned it, and Nynaeve was not about to ask. She had
no interest in knowing how much stronger than she a Sea Folk girl was going to be. None at all.
Bare feet shuffling on the patterned green carpet, Talaan made one futile attempt to break

"I am nineteen!" Talaan replied indignantly

Cyndane
Tpod

Quote:
Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the
Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now
that she was close. . . . The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had
been uncommon

Someryn (&Graendal)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCoS ch 20
Someryn drew close to Sevanna. "The woman has the gift," she
whispered without taking her eyes from the pair. "She weaves a barrier." Pursing her lips, she added,
reluctantly, "She is strong. Very strong." From her, that meant something indeed. Sevanna had never been able
to understand why strength in the Power did not count among Wise Ones— while being thankful that it did not,
for her own sake— but Someryn prided herself that she had never encountered a woman near as strong as she.
By her tone, Sevanna suspected this woman was stronger.


Mora
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC ch 15.

"Nor have I from any save Mora," Bair told them, "but she was a remarkable woman. It was said she
was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake's bite, yet she looked as young as
either of you. I was only a girl, but I remember her well. She knew many things, and could channel strongly.
Other Wise Ones came from every clan to learn from her. I think love so great, or hate so, is very rare, but she
said this happened to her twice, once with the first man she married, and once with a rival for her third
husband's interest."
'Three hundred?" Egwene


Semirhage & Mesaana


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC prologue
In truth, more than amusing herself, she was avoiding conversation with her mpanion. Semirhage sat doing needlework in a high-backed chair covered in red tapestry, long slender fingers deftly making minuscule stitches to form a labyrinthine pattern of tiny flowers. It was always a surprise that the woman liked an activity so... ordinary. Her black dress was a sharp contrast against the chair. Not even Demandred dared suggest to Semirhage’s face that she wore black so often because Lanfear wore white.
For the thousandth time Mesaana tried to analyze why she felt uncomfortable around the other woman. Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses, with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points, and where she did not, she had other strengths to lay against weaknesses in Semirhage. It was not that. Semirhage took delight in cruelty
Semi seemed to be in competition with Lanfear and so maybe she was the closest to her in strength. Graendal suggested she might be the most "powerful" of semurhage, Mesaana and Demandred in ToM iirc. Plus LTT's musings after his shielding by Galina's AS suggest that semi might be first among the female forsaken after Lanfear's death.

Viendre and Tamela


Quote:
Originally Posted by WH prologue
Not like two others in the room she recognized, bony Tamela with her angular face, and Viendre, a beautiful,
blue-eyed eagle. Both were stronger in the Power than she, stronger than any sister she had met save
Nynaeve
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH prologue
Elayne gave a start, but the next moment Viendre was behind her. “I stand for Elayne Trakand’s
mother, who cannot be here.” Hands on Elayne’s shoulders, Viendre pushed her forward and pressed
down until she was kneeling on the cold tiles in front of Aviendha, then knelt behind her. “I offer my
daughter to her testing.”
Another time, Elayne might have giggled. Neither woman looked more than a half-dozen years
older than Aviendha or her

Metarra

Quote:
Originally Posted by tPoD ch 2
Rainyn was
easily as strong as Lelaine or Romanda, and Metarra on a level with Elayne herself, while Talaan. . . . Talaan, so
meek in her red linen blouse, with eyes that seemed permanently downcast, came very close to Nynaeve. Very
close. More, Elayne knew she herself had not yet reached her full potential, and neither had Nynaeve. How
close were Metarra and Talaan? She had grown accustomed to knowing that only Nynaeve and the Forsaken
were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha's, matched
Egwene's. So much for complacency, she told herself ruefully.

Egwene

Gateway size:
Quote:
aCoS ch
Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped
through onto
Therava

Quote:
Originally Posted by tPoD ch 11
Therava and Someryn were stronger than any woman in
the Tower, and any of them could have been Aes Sedai easily
.

Nicola

Quote:
sisters still grumbled that
they were ten years too old to accept novice discipline—like many of those older women, Nicola was ferocious
in her desire to learn, by all reports, and she had a potential bettered only by Nynaeve,
Elayne and Egwene herself among living Aes Sedai. In fact, Nicola apparently was making great strides,
often great enough that her teachers had to slow her down. Some said she had begun picking up weaves as if she
already knew them. Not only that, but she already demonstrated two Talents, although the ability to "see"
ta'veren was minor, while the major Talent, Foretelling, emerged so that no one understood what she had
Foretold. She herself did not remember a word she said. All in all, Nicola was already marked by the sisters as
someone to watch despite her late start. The begrudging agreement to test women older than seventeen or
eighteen probably could be laid at Nicola's feet.

Bode

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoT ch 30
Bode’s future would be brilliant. Her potential
almost equaled Egwene’s. But Aes Sedai, Accepted or novice
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC ch 11
Even young women of eighteen—the limit they had set for
themselves—often found it hard to accept the strictures of the novitiate, yet had they extended the limit only
five years, she and Alanna could have brought out twice as many, if not more. Five of these girls—five!—had
the spark inborn, including Mat's sister and Wile and young Jancy; they would channel eventually whether
anyone taught them or not and be very strong.

Tuon's sera

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch 14
Making her way along the two lines, Tuon spoke a few words to each sul'dam and petted each of the
damane. The six she had brought with her were her best, and they beamed at her with a fondness equal to hers
for them. They had competed eagerly to be chosen. Plump, yellow-haired Dali and Dani, sisters who hardly
needed a sul'dam's direction. Charral, her hair as gray as her eyes, but still the most agile in her spinning. Sera,
with red ribbons in her tightly curled black hair, the strongest, and proud as a sul'dam. Tiny Mylen,
shorter even than Tuon herself. Mylen was Tuon's special pride among the six
Cadsuane and co (Meilyn and Kerene)

Quote:
Cadsuane went on, 'Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are
gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest.' Larelle

Cadsuane scowled, a fearsome sight. 'No one has come to the Tower in a thousand years who could
match me. No one to match Meilyn or Kerene in almost six hundred. A thousand years ago, there would have
been fifty sisters or more who stood higher than this child. In another hundred years, though, she'll stand in the
first rank. Oh, someone stronger may be found in that time, but there won't be fifty, and there may be none. We
dwindle.'

'Holding our silence about age doesn't keep
people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five
once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to
boot.'
Oldest Kin : Aloisia Nemosni

Quote:
WH ch 10
The oldest anywhere is a woman called Aloisia Nemosni, an oil
merchant in Tear. Egwene, she's nearly six ... hundred . . . years . . . old! When the Hall hears that, I wager
they'll be ready to put the Oath Rod on a shelf.

Reanne's age-
Quote:
"My next naming day," Reanne said as if it was the most ordinary thing in the world, "will be my
four hundred and twelfth."
Merilille fainted dead away
ETA:
As for the forsaken, I wonder if BS was wrong about semirhage. The sixth person above nyn seems to be the issue. (we already have Lanfear, Sharina, Alivia, Talaan and Cyndane) The sixth name could be one of Semirhage, Graendal, Someryn, Sera, Mora and Aloisia. I think we can drop Mesaana.


Semi - BS says she's not but I used to see her as the the strongest next to Lanfear for reasons earlier mentioned. One additional point here is that the forsaken were always the strongest of the DO's chosen. If these women are the strongest of an age of strong chanellers, realistically how far apart can we put them before some are too weak to be among the "elite"?

PS: Plus I would have loved it if semi had encountered nyn who had done things she couldn't even in a very primitive age and while having less strength to boot! A nice jolt to her ego possibly.

2. Graendal. she's stronger than someryn who is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. But nyn is also stronger than viendre and Tamela. So if nyn = someryn, then Graendal is stronger than both. But her attitude among the forsaken (RJ said a bit about their egos) makes one think she isn't all that strong At least not enough to place her close to Lanfear. More likely she acts like she could be a level or at most two below lanfear which is about where nyn is.

3. Mora based on age. If her life expectancy is upto 900 years then she qualifies to be one of the strongest we've met. To compare, LTT's life expectancy is between 900-1200 years based on age and strength. (of course since he had gray hair early on, he probably wouldn't have made it to 800)

4. Tuon's sera - Is she the strongest damane on this side of the ocean? Or Alivia? It stands to reason that the Imperial family would have kept the strongest damane close. But it also makes military sense to send in your best weapons where the battle is hottest. And Altara was hot!

5. Someryn - strongest of the aiel is how strong? I could reverse my arguement in her favour.i.e since RJ said the forsaken tend to be egostical, Graendal might actually be calling her "considerable" when in fact she's actually stronger! And the only thing that keeps Graendal from eliminating a potential rival right then and there is that she's ignorant. (and of course the ring angreal)

6. Alosia. she's 600 years old and so must have left the WT hundreds of years before Cadsuane came in. And we know the WT covers its failures well. So if Cadsuane says none stronger has come in a thousand years, is she referring to merely OP strength? And we don't know how much she has slowed and how old she looks now.

Note:

I no longer think gateway size is related to potential strength just current strength. And there are modifying factors, such as type of weave, first learned limitation,. use of angreal or linking.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Last edited by greatwolf; 03-15-2012 at 01:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:44 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Let me add that deducing strength from the age of characters their apparent appearance is going to be tasking and messy. And likely we'll be wrong about some of them when the encyclopedia comes out. For one thing, we'll be judging from how one old one character judges another (who has slowed) to be.

I hope we can add the men directly to the list where the stand compared to the women rather than making mutually exclusive lists.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:13 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The most interesting question for me is "Can men and women be measured on the same scale?" Is strength in saidin equivalent to strength in saidar?

Also, I don't really think strength is the power is as big a factor for combat as you might think. Most one on one duels would involve a narrow range of weaves that anyone with Moiraine's original strength could cast. Fireballs, throwing things with air, binding the other person or sending them flying. Defensive barriers woven of Air or Fire (to counter incoming attacks). All of these are things that mid-level channelers have demonstrated proficiency with.

The only time strength becomes an issue is with shielding. And even then, the fact that both characters are entering the fight holding the source would mitigate most of the stronger person's advantage.


I really want to see a male vs female fight in the last battle. I was really stoked for Egwene vs Aran'gar (technically a male in terms of using the Power) but she died in the most useless way.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:23 PM
Kimon's Avatar
Kimon Kimon is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,414
Kimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Linda at the 13th Depository has a thorough analysis on this.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...h-ranking.html
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-26-2012, 06:47 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Also, I don't really think strength is the power is as big a factor for combat as you might think.

Yes it is. We have multiple references from the forsaken about how strength determines so much among them, not least the mad scramble for angreal and terangreal when they were freed. Even if it didn't matter, it would be nice to know. But i'll give you this from RJ:


Quote:
For Sidious, when Alivia faced Cyndane, Alivia was by far the stronger because of her angreal, and had various tools (ter'angreal) to work with besides, but Cyndane was much, much more knowledgeable about channeling. Alivia, after all, knew relatively little except how to be a weapon. That was very useful in the situation, but in this case, knowledge versus strength made it an even match

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Most one on one duels would involve a narrow range of weaves that anyone with Moiraine's original strength could cast. Fireballs, throwing things with air, binding the other person or sending them flying. Defensive barriers woven of Air or Fire (to counter incoming attacks). All of these are things that mid-level channelers have demonstrated proficiency with.

The only time strength becomes an issue is with shielding. And even then, the fact that both characters are entering the fight holding the source would mitigate most of the stronger person's advantage.

Actually strength affects a lot of things like who weaves faster, number of weaves you can hold and even the dexterity at weaving! All this might be made to count in a battle or duel! But of course, we all know that an arrow can kill as well as a bullet. Battle will be battle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
The most interesting question for me is "Can men and women be measured on the same scale?" Is strength in saidin equivalent to strength in saidar?
RJ answered this and its in the link that Kimon gave at the 13th depository. But there are a whole lot of other things i'm considering here. I've always wondered if what nyn was about Logain's strength and i've read and reread her shielding of him in LoC to find definite proof but I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC h 30
He had not attempted to struggle at all, but that could be because he had known from the first that she would only snare him. It could. But how hard had he tried to break through her shield? That push, not exactly slow in building but certainly not fast. Almost like a man stretching muscles long unused, pushing at something not with the intent of moving it but just from the need to feel those muscles again. The thought turned her belly to ice.
Could Logain have broken the shield? We know that Logain is close behind Rand now in raw strength, and if nyn can hold Logain then she should be able to hold Rand or be close to him in strength. Which shouldn't be if Rand had LTT's strength.

That would be most revealing and I suspect it is true nevertheless. It would mean that Rand has a strength different from LTT or that the same sex link(s) affects his strength in the OP.i.e he can't draw as much as he could because of the links! Perhaps also protecting him from burnout.


@Kimon, thanks for the link. I think it would be nice for everyone to see it or can it be posted here for discussion? However, i think its rather insufficient though i'm not yet through with it. And the whole point of this is that it should be (1) collaborative (2) it will eventually link strength to age and slowing and gateway size to provide more detail. And possibly more accuracy.
(3) these things ought to be discussed. you'll be amazed what TLers can come up with and i've seen enough of linda's post to know that there'll be disgreement.

I'll ask a couple immediately.

(a)why place Sharina at par with Graendal? We have no idea how much she has gained and its semirhage, not Graendal who seemed to be in competition with Lanfear, always in black to lanfear's white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC prologue
In truth, more than amusing herself, she was avoiding conversation with her companion. Semirhage sat doing needlework in a high-backed chair covered in red tapestry, long slender fingers deftly making minuscule stitches to form a labyrinthine pattern of tiny flowers. It was always a surprise that the woman liked an activity so... ordinary. Her black dress was a sharp contrast against the chair. Not even Demandred dared suggest to Semirhage’s face that she wore black so often because Lanfear wore white.
For the thousandth time Mesaana tried to analyze why she felt uncomfortable around the other woman. Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses, with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points, and where she did not, she had other strengths to lay against weaknesses in Semirhage. It was not that.
And Graendal herself wondered if Semirhage was the strongest of the threesome in tGS. I think Rand's thoughts on the forsaken in LoC also placed semi first on the list.

E: Also nyn was about equivalent to Suian in tGH. and then to Moghedien in TSR. I think that means that Moghedien may not be too far above Suian's level. Perhaps she's cadsuane's level or at best Fgwene's. But this is opinion and not fact.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Last edited by greatwolf; 02-26-2012 at 07:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-26-2012, 07:43 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default Age and strength

Consider the example of Alosia, the oldest kin. If we assume that the oath rod reduces lifespan by half, and that the strongest AS do not live more than 300 years, than Alosia would be as strong as Cadsuane (less than 300) or stronger. So she would be on the list. The same arguement goes for Mora of the aiel. If she's still referred to as "young" at 300, then at a guess she'll be expected clock seven to nine hundred years! That would put her above cadsuane at the least and likely above Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha as well!

E: please note that most kin are tower trained. And we know that noone stronger than Cadsuane has been in the WT for a thousand years. So Alosia may not be as strong as we expect, or there's some other explanation.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Last edited by greatwolf; 02-26-2012 at 07:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:14 PM
Kimon's Avatar
Kimon Kimon is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,414
Kimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Linda's assessment seems pretty accurate to me, if I may suggest, if you really want to make a channeling strength chart, make on for saidin-users. I don't think anyone has made one of those yet - through Brandon said he was given the official version of strength levels when he took over the project. Nonetheless, a saidin-level chart would be likely of more interest to the general TL types.

I'd imagine you could start with something along the lines of -

Rand
Moridin
Demandred
Taim & Logain
Narishma & Flinn
Sandomere

Unfortunately after that it would get more ambiguous, but certainly there is enough in the books to at least make reasonable assumptions backed up by quotes - which I'm to lazy and busy to attempt.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:24 PM
fdsaf3's Avatar
fdsaf3 fdsaf3 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 969
fdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant futurefdsaf3 has a brilliant future
Default

This is an interesting, albeit played out, line of inquiry. Personally, I used to find this a very interesting topic to discuss until I read a quote from RJ that fans put more stock in OP power than he did.

I'm not suggesting this is a stupid conversation or anything like that, so don't take it personally.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Sei'taer's Avatar
Sei'taer Sei'taer is offline
Inbred, Ugly, and Drunk on Corn Liquor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, Tennessee
Posts: 5,505
Sei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond reputeSei'taer has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
This is an interesting, albeit played out, line of inquiry. Personally, I used to find this a very interesting topic to discuss until I read a quote from RJ that fans put more stock in OP power than he did.

I'm not suggesting this is a stupid conversation or anything like that, so don't take it personally.
There are probably 20 discussions like this in the archives. Maybe a few more or a few less. Hard to say because they mix inwith the who's the better fighter and who's the better general threads.
__________________
Sei'taer
General of the Southern Border, Landogardner, Bringer of Pain, Theoryland Hillbilly




www.buckeyestation.com look at it, love it, share it with your friends!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:47 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,154
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I would put money Moridin and LTT/Rand being basically equal in strength for a couple reasons:

1. Two greatest men of the AoL
2. Natural balance between Light and Shadow's respective champions and the theme of balance that RJ plays on so many, many times.
3. LTT was only able to stop him at the gates of Paaran Disen, not capture/kill him.

Overall, I think it would come down to luck & guile if there was a true OP battle between the two.


Someone will surely bring up the multiple Ishy/Rand battles in the early books but something to remember there is that Ishy wasn't necessarily trying to kill Rand but rather turn him to his own purposes so its hard to say if those outcomes are legit...and Rand had Callandor for the battle in the Stone/TAR.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:34 PM
The Angry Druid The Angry Druid is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 193
The Angry Druid is just really niceThe Angry Druid is just really niceThe Angry Druid is just really niceThe Angry Druid is just really niceThe Angry Druid is just really niceThe Angry Druid is just really nice
Default

RJ kept the male Forsaken strength rather vague on purpose, and many statements seem contradictory.

Also, on should remember, when discussion the most powerful Forsaken, power in that context may not equate to OP strength.

Both the dexterity (both in terms of speed and precision) could be a huge factor in who wins a OP duel. And a channeler could have particular strengths or Talents that could alter the outcome, like the Kin who could hold a shield on Nynaeve w/ barely being able to channel, or the fact that Asmo can't break through a shield. Or Lanfear's skill in being able to sever male weaves she can't see. Or damane's experience with violent weaves giving them a huge advantage over AS who may actually have more strength.

Lastly, a person may have other Talents unrelated to the OP that make them more feared/powerful. Lanfer's ability to watch others unseen in T'A'R comes to mind. Or the ability to read residues, or possibly even read Compulsion (as Graendal feared Nyneave could do). Or the talents may be in the personality of the channeler. One could be strong in the OP, but maybe not as strong a personality (Aginor), or the reverse (Sorilea).

There is a lot more than strength that goes into deciding how dangerous or powerful a person can be.

Still, Dr. Saidin at the 13th did have some thoughts.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...rength-in.html
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:59 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,683
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

[QUOTE=greatwolf;181430]

RJ answered this and its in the link that Kimon gave at the 13th depository. But there are a whole lot of other things i'm considering here. I've always wondered if what nyn was about Logain's strength and i've read and reread her shielding of him in LoC to find definite proof but I'm not sure.



Could Logain have broken the shield? We know that Logain is close behind Rand now in raw strength, and if nyn can hold Logain then she should be able to hold Rand or be close to him in strength. Which shouldn't be if Rand had LTT's strength.[/ quote]
Why shouldn't it be so? As per Brandon, there are only six women stronger than Nynaeve, and we already knew she was in the upper echelons of female Forsaken strength. Since a shield can be held by someone weaker than you, and Nyneave was not even at her peak strength when she shielded and bound Logain, it stands to reason Nyneave at full strength would be able to shield LTT.
Quote:

And Graendal herself wondered if Semirhage was the strongest of the threesome in tGS. I think Rand's thoughts on the forsaken in LoC also placed semi first on the list.
Firstly, Graendal had no problems directly challenging Lanfear in the beginning of tFoH. For another, Brandon said Semirhage was weaker than, or at best as strong as Nyneave, yet Nyn is average female forsaken strength per RJ. She can't be a average female forsaken strength if she's as strong as the second strongest if them right?

So, the conventional wisdom has always been:

Lanfear
Cyndane, Alivia, maybe Sharina
Graendal, maybe Sharina,
Nyneave, Semirhage, maybe Mesaana.

Quote:


Also nyn was about equivalent to Suian in tGH. and then to Moghedien in TSR. I think that means that Moghedien may not be too far above Suian's level. Perhaps she's cadsuane's level or at best Fgwene's. But this is opinion and not fact.
It is incorrect opinion. Nynaeve was forced during this period, which is why she jumped so much in strength.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:08 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,683
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

Also, using ages of to infer strength is silly. Romanda is as old as Cadsuane, yet there's a decent strength difference between them. We don't even know how much of an effect strength in the Power has on age, or how exactly the Oath Rod affects this.

Gateway size is also a silly measure. For one, fewer women seem to be able to make one at all. For another, channelers don't have to use their full strength to make their largest gateway. Then there's the fact that its a Talent, so some like Androl can make far larger Gateways than their strengths would suggest.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:40 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Also, using ages of to infer strength is silly. Romanda is as old as Cadsuane, yet there's a decent strength difference between them. We don't even know how much of an effect strength in the Power has on age, or how exactly the Oath Rod affects this.

Gateway size is also a silly measure. For one, fewer women seem to be able to make one at all. For another, channelers don't have to use their full strength to make their largest gateway. Then there's the fact that its a Talent, so some like Androl can make far larger Gateways than their strengths would suggest.
While we are in agreement that age is frivolous, Gateway size does not seem to be, the only known exception being Androl.

And it seems to be relatively common knowledge, so I can only conclude that (since absolute potential is seldom secret, except theoretically amongst the men) it has a high correlation to potential.

I recall a quote from I think Rand, on Asmodean's teachings, claiming as much. And from KoD 19, Vows:
Quote:
“A Deathgate,” Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. “Why are you still holding the Power?” he asked suddenly. “And so much. If you’re trying to show me that you’re stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I’d say you’re holding every drop of saidin that you can safely.”
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-27-2012, 02:02 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,683
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
While we are in agreement that age is frivolous, Gateway size does not seem to be, the only known exception being Androl.

And it seems to be relatively common knowledge, so I can only conclude that (since absolute potential is seldom secret, except theoretically amongst the men) it has a high correlation to potential.

I recall a quote from I think Rand, on Asmodean's teachings, claiming as much. And from KoD 19, Vows:
Not really. If we take Gateway size to be a measure of strength, then explain how Rand can make six gateways of his maximum size at once.

There's also the fact that Rand could make gateways just as big even when he wasn't at full strength.

Most conclusively, there's this:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

That's proof enough that OP strength has nothing much to do with gateway sizes.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-27-2012, 02:33 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I'm not sure that quote says what you think it does...
The amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, sure. But maximum Gateway size is a function of absolute potential. And the size of Gateways is directly related to their making.

I'm fairly sure this is just below canon. It is close enough that many theories concerning Androl have him as a powerful channeler with a significant block.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-27-2012, 02:41 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,683
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
I'm not sure that quote says what you think it does...
The amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, sure. But maximum Gateway size is a function of absolute potential. And the size of Gateways is directly related to their making.

I'm fairly sure this is just below canon. It is close enough that many theories concerning Androl have him as a powerful channeler with a significant block.
Can you produce anything resembling a quote to prove the bolded part? "I believe so" doesn't quite cut it, especially when a direct quote says otherwise.

And Androl has a block? Since when?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-27-2012, 04:01 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Can you produce anything resembling a quote to prove the bolded part? "I believe so" doesn't quite cut it, especially when a direct quote says otherwise.
All in good time...I'm still getting the hang of the new database. I will say that I am almost certain that Androl is the only known exception to this rule. And since men don't advertise their current potential like women do...a block is a reasonable hypothesis.

Did you even read my KoD quote? Logain strongly implies that Rand holding his maximum is redundant for proving his strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
And Androl has a block? Since when?
I thought I only said it was a popular theory. The fact is that we don't have a lot of information on Androl. Maybe he has a block, maybe not. Maybe you should flip through one of the Androl threads.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-27-2012, 04:23 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,683
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
All in good time...I'm still getting the hang of the new database. I will say that I am almost certain that Androl is the only known exception to this rule. And since men don't advertise their current potential like women do...a block is a reasonable hypothesis.
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have. So no, not a reasonable hypothesis.

[quote]Did you even read my KoD quote? Logain strongly implies that Rand holding his maximum is redundant for proving his strength.[/ quote]
And Logain is an OP expert whose word is more believable than Asmodean's?

Quote:
I thought I only said it was a popular theory. The fact is that we don't have a lot of information on Androl. Maybe he has a block, maybe not. Maybe you should flip through one of the Androl threads.
Not interested in reading about an impossible block afflicting a tertiary character.

Incidentally, what do you make of Berowyn, a woman not strong enough to become Aes Sedai, but able to shield Nyneave with ease? Does she have a block too?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-27-2012, 04:53 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have. So no, not a reasonable hypothesis.

...

Incidentally, what do you make of Berowyn, a woman not strong enough to become Aes Sedai, but able to shield Nyneave with ease? Does she have a block too?
You seem awfully comfortable accepting the collective wisdom of Blocks, while at the same time rejecting the same sort of reasoning surrounding shielding and Gateways.

Who can say what a block is, really? Or a wilder? The Wise Ones do not seem to have blocks, but they are wilders in a traditional sense. Egwene is a wilder to some AS (she began channeling outside the Tower), but she seems to have no blocks. Aviendha appears to be the most talented female channeler alive, and has never set foot in the WT.

What if the hand motions that are necessary for certain Aes Sedai are a sort of block? I don't think we really have enough data to say otherwise. Perhaps Androl's block is a sort of 'he can't channel strongly if he *whatever*' as opposed to the traditional 'he can't channel at all.' But his potential is unchanged, and so is his Gateway size. The same may go for Berowyn, or perhaps her case is different. But in any case, both Gateway size and shielding potential seem to be at least correlated with absolute potential. So using both to create a list such as this seems reasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
And Logain is an OP expert whose word is more believable than Asmodean's?
More believable? Probably not. But as I said before, the quotes don't contradict each other at all. You seem to be taking principles of the Skimming Space and applying it to Gateways themselves.

And Logain's word doesn't seem to demand as much skepticism as you think. He's been around a lot of channeling. Unless you think the greater part of his students have been masking their potentials just to screw with him. A general rule of thumb in literature is 'no sentence is without purpose.' While the obvious corrolary is that 'nothing necessarily means what we think it does', what exactly do you think the point of Logain's line was? To show he was insane?

and you're the one accusing me of making overly large leaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Not interested in reading about an impossible block afflicting a tertiary character.
That's a shame. They were interesting discussions. I revised a few of my own beliefs after reading them, and I don't give a crap about Androl. Berowyn was discussed too. But I am a naturally curious guy. I am a Theorylander (but I have no need to repeat myself).
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.