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  #1  
Old 02-28-2012, 06:51 PM
NaeffOfDreams NaeffOfDreams is offline
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Default Loony Jain Farstrider Theory (ToM Spoilers)

I don't think we're done with Jain Farstrider yet. Too much groundwork has been laid with him, dating back to EotW, that has yet to come to fruition. Ishamael mentions making him into an unwitting tool on several occasions. Then there's the POV we get from him in aCoS trying to remember something before it's too late. These two things are both connected and important to the Last Battle. And before you ask, I don't know what he's trying to remember, but I know it's important. The BLANK in the Blight perhaps? Or something we haven't even thought of?

But since Jain's death, those memories are lost forever. Or are they? He died in the Tower of Ghenjei, at the hands of the 'Finns, the same people who put memories in Mat's head. All those memories come from a certain character archetype that Jain actually falls handily into. Mat already has memories of dying, so we know that time doesn't matter to the 'Finns as long as they get a sniff of the person at some point. This leads me to believe it is very possible that Mat is now in possession of Jain's memories. Tear it apart, folks!
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:24 PM
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I think he may come back as a hero of the horn, but now in his prime and not an old man.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:31 PM
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It's all dependent on if Mat CAN get new memories (besides the ones he makes for himself, of course). I always viewed what the Finns did to him as giving him a finite amount of memories, I never considered that he'd be getting more into his head after having met with them.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:52 AM
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He may have had them all along and they just haven't jogged yet. If the Finns can use memories from after they've sniffed someone, maybe they can plant them before they've sniffed someone as well.
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  #5  
Old 02-29-2012, 10:09 AM
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For whatever reason, all of the memories that Mat acquired were of the middle ages of the 3rd Age - IIRC from the time span of 500 years before the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing's time. Jain Farstrider's life does not fall within these time parameters. Since we know that there were visitors to Finnland up until 700 NE, it seems that the time frame of the memories that Mat acquired was arbitrary and not due to some limitation of obtainable memories on the part of the Finns. So there is no reason to presume that Jain's memories would spontaneously be obtained by Mat, at least by the means he acquired them previously.

I do agree that Jain has not been given full closure, however. Perhaps Mat will finally get around to reading his biography and gain some enlightenment from Jain's travels in a less invasive manner.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:02 AM
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In the tradition of Jordan's great POVs showing the ta'veren being awesome from an outside character's perspective, I have this vision in my head of Mat actually seeing himself through Jain's eyes. It would make a sweet reveal. I'm going to hold it in the realm of possibility until January 8th, at any rate.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:21 AM
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Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:14 PM
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Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.
I'm doubtful of this theory, but your comment does make me wonder: no-one ever asks who Moridin was before he was Moridin. Hint: the answer's not Ishamael.
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  #9  
Old 02-29-2012, 01:59 PM
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I'm doubtful of this theory, but your comment does make me wonder: no-one ever asks who Moridin was before he was Moridin. Hint: the answer's not Ishamael.
Referring to being transmigrated several times over the course of the series?
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  #10  
Old 02-29-2012, 02:41 PM
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Referring to being transmigrated several times over the course of the series?
Referring to the identity of the body rather than the soul, to put it as plainly as possible.
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  #11  
Old 02-29-2012, 02:48 PM
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Referring to the identity of the body rather than the soul, to put it as plainly as possible.
Yeah, that's what I meant, in a roundabout fashion. It's all "Ishy" in there, but I've gotten the impression that the body's original identities aren't all that important. Maybe they're former darkfriends, permanently marked so that others can "dance in their skins" or maybe it's just another "forger"? Dunno. Don't really have a theory on it, though I've leaned towards the latter.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:54 PM
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Yeah, that's what I meant, in a roundabout fashion. It's all "Ishy" in there, but I've gotten the impression that the body's original identities aren't all that important. Maybe they're former darkfriends, permanently marked so that others can "dance in their skins" or maybe it's just another "forger"? Dunno. Don't really have a theory on it, though I've leaned towards the latter.
It's the explanation that IMO works best for the various Taimoridin theories. It's clear that the identities of Aran'gar and Osan'gar were unimportant, but that could be misdirecting us away from significance to Moridin or Cyndane.

My old theory before TOM was that Lanfear and Moiraine had swapped bodies.
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  #13  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:48 PM
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It's the explanation that IMO works best for the various Taimoridin theories. It's clear that the identities of Aran'gar and Osan'gar were unimportant, but that could be misdirecting us away from significance to Moridin or Cyndane.

My old theory before TOM was that Lanfear and Moiraine had swapped bodies.
Yea, I'd heard that one, though I never really got into it because RJ had given what I thought was a solid description of someone entirely different than Moiraine.

As far as significance goes, my personal favorite (left-field, due to no real supporting text) loony theory is that Rand and Ishamael are both the Dragon, with Ishy being a Dragon that gave up his soul to become the Champion of the DO in an age or world so far gone that the memory is lost.

More keen to me, though, is the idea that there is nothing that can be done with the TP that cannot be done with the OP, like darkness and light, saidar and saidin. This means that transmigration would be possible for any powerful channeler, though it lends itself unpleasantly to the bodyswap theory, which I don't like at all.
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  #14  
Old 02-29-2012, 04:12 PM
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Yea, I'd heard that one, though I never really got into it because RJ had given what I thought was a solid description of someone entirely different than Moiraine.

As far as significance goes, my personal favorite (left-field, due to no real supporting text) loony theory is that Rand and Ishamael are both the Dragon, with Ishy being a Dragon that gave up his soul to become the Champion of the DO in an age or world so far gone that the memory is lost.

More keen to me, though, is the idea that there is nothing that can be done with the TP that cannot be done with the OP, like darkness and light, saidar and saidin. This means that transmigration would be possible for any powerful channeler, though it lends itself unpleasantly to the bodyswap theory, which I don't like at all.
It also lends itself to the TAR-rip theory. After all, what is a Hero Of The Horn but a soul pledged to the Light, just as a Forsaken is a soul pledged to the Shadow?
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:34 PM
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It also lends itself to the TAR-rip theory. After all, what is a Hero Of The Horn but a soul pledged to the Light, just as a Forsaken is a soul pledged to the Shadow?
I'm not sure I'd go in for that one... other than the monstrosity that the CoTL became, there's not really any true lightfriends, people who pledge their souls to the light.

Might be that the act of heroism that binds them to the Horn is somehow akin to that, however.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:40 PM
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I'm not sure I'd go in for that one... other than the monstrosity that the CoTL became, there's not really any true lightfriends, people who pledge their souls to the light.

Might be that the act of heroism that binds them to the Horn is somehow akin to that, however.
That's basically what I meant. A HOTH is the equivalent of a Chosen.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:17 PM
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Could Mat have some of Moridin's memories, now?

Assuming, of course, that it was Ishy who came to save Lanfear. If it was Slayer, then Mat could have memories from two who are one, which would probably creep him out a bit.
I mat be wrong but:

Didn't Lanfear die after her power was partially "consumed", resurrected by DO, placed in new body, handed to Mor on a "leach".
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:51 PM
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I mat be wrong but:

Didn't Lanfear die after her power was partially "consumed", resurrected by DO, placed in new body, handed to Mor on a "leach".
Moiraine says someone came to get her. We don't know if she was alive or dead, or who it was that came (most people think Moridin, but there's an outside chance it was Slayer, and an outsidererer chance it was someone else entirely).
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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Old 02-29-2012, 07:51 PM
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Moiraine says someone came to get her. We don't know if she was alive or dead, or who it was that came (most people think Moridin, but there's an outside chance it was Slayer, and an outsidererer chance it was someone else entirely).
From Wot encyclopedia:
Moiraine tells some of her story. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn feed on emotion like a drug. She can still channel but she is now very weak in the One Power from their draining. They told her they killed Lanfear that way.2 A man came one time, but said she was not the one he wanted.3

Notes
2- Interesting. Lanfear apparently died, as she got a new body, but Cyndane is only slightly weakened in the One Power. Did the Aelfinn and Eelfinn lie to Moiraine or was most of Lanfear's strength restored when she became Cyndane?
3- So who was he, Moridin or someone else? He did not want Moiraine. Was he looking for Lanfear? In any case it seems most likely that he was responsible for destroying the other twisted red doorway. (ToM,Ch55)

When I read the book I always thought the snakes & foxes were to greedy and overfed on Lanfear's ability, killing her in the process.

But I may be wrong.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:04 PM
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When I read the book I always thought the snakes & foxes were to greedy and overfed on Lanfear's ability, killing her in the process.

But I may be wrong.
That was my initial impression (pre_ToM) as well, that Lanfear had died by some fault of the Finns, but with the revelation of the unknown seeker and the fact that the Finns like to drain their victims, that seems far less likely.

I'm guessing that once Moridin or whomever figured out that she was trapped in Finnland, she was retrieved the only way they were able. RIP Lanfear.
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