art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-04-2012, 11:51 AM
jarno87 jarno87 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 28
jarno87 is just really nicejarno87 is just really nicejarno87 is just really nicejarno87 is just really nicejarno87 is just really nice
Default Sammael in Baerlon in tEotW?

Hey all,

I just started my final reread before the release of aMoL. While I read the beginning of tEotW, I found a description of a man which sounded familiar. I think it might be Sammael spying on our heros.

In chapter 17, the hero-party go and enjoy themselves with dancing in the common room. They are spied upon by a man with a scar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
Everyone in the room was laughing, he thought as he danced around his next partner, one of the serving
maids with her apron flapping wildly. The only unsmiling face he saw was on a man huddled by one of the
fireplaces, and that fellow had a scar that crossed his whole face from one temple to the opposite jaw, giving his
nose a slant and drawing the corner of his mouth down. The man met his gaze and grimaced, and Rand looked
away in embarrassment. Maybe with that scar the fellow could not smile.
...
The scar-faced man was scowling at him. His step faltered and his cheeks grew hot. He had not meant to
embarrass the fellow; he really did not think he had stared. He turned to meet his next partner and forgot all
about the man. The next woman to dance into his arms was Nynaeve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
Then the music and the clapping and the singing were too loud for any further talk. Rand and Perrin
joined in the clapping as the dancers circled the floor. Several times he became aware of the scar-faced man
staring at him. The man had a right to be touchy, with that scar, but Rand did not see anything he could do now
that would not make matters worse. He concentrated on the music and avoided looking at the fellow.
A bit later the three boys discus the fellow with Lan:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
"There's a fellow been staring at me," Mat said. " A man with a scar across his face. You don't think he
could be a . . . one of the friends you warned us about?"
"Like this?" Rand said, drawing a finger across his nose to the corner of his mouth. "He stared at me,
too." He looked around the room. People were drifting away, and most of those still left clustered around Thom.
"He's not here, now."
"I saw the man," Lan said. " According to Master Pitch, he's a spy for the Whitecloaks. He's no worry to
us. " Maybe he was not, but Rand could see something was bothering the Warder.
Rand glanced at Mat, who had the stiff expression on his face that always meant he was hiding
something. A Whitecloak spy.
They just dismiss the fellow as being non important. The description of the scar on his face made me think about one of the forsaken having a big scar.
Via the description of Sammel in encyclopaedia-wot I found the following parts in the tFoH Prologue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
Sammael was compact, solid and larger-seeming than he truly was, his stride quick and active, his
manner abrupt. Blue-eyed and golden-haired, with a neat squaretrimmed beard, he would perhaps have been
above the ordinary in looks except for a slanting scar, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged across his face
from hairline to jaw
.. He could have had it removed as soon as it was made, all those long years ago, but' he had
elected not to.
...
Sammael absently rubbed the scar across his face; it had been Lews Therm who gave it to him. Three
thousand years ago and more, well before the Breaking of the World, before the Great Lord was imprisoned,
before so much, but Sammael never forgot.
So we have two man with a very distinctive scar which are described almost identically. It would be very unlikely that there are two man in Randland with both such a special scar.
So could it be that instead of just a whitecloak spy we have one of the forsaken spying on the boys.
So I wonder could it be Sammael who is watching the boys there in Baerlon?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-04-2012, 12:09 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

It's certainly something interesting to consider. If it was Sammael, that suggests the Forsaken were free far earlier than we thought (at the end of TEOTW). It's also true that Sammael wasn't sealed particularly close to the edge of the bore, so that would mean other Forsaken would have been free around that time, which contradicts some of the evidence we have - we know that Lanfear, at least, didn't get out until the end of TEOTW/start of TGH and wasn't subject to the ravages of time that the three who were sealed near to the surface were. For those reasons, I'm inclined to think it wasn't Sammael, but there is certainly more than one mystery surrounding Sammael; the circumstances of his death and his hypothesised connection to Fain also stand out. His role in the story, one way or another, may not be as done as we think.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Well, RJ certainly draws enough attention to this man to make you wonder but here's my argument for why it was not Sammael.


Rand is still alive.

We've seen on numerous occasions that Sammael is a shoot first, ask questions later sort of guy. If he encountered a young, untrained Dragon Reborn - and if he knew what he was looking at - he would have burned Rand to ash then and there. Moiraine would have been all but helpless against him and none of the others knew how to channel yet.

The man was obviously interested in Rand, interested enough that we can assume that he knew Rand was important in some way. Perhaps it was just a spy for the Whitecloaks who was curious about a few boys who happened to be traveling with an Aes Sedai but if it was Sammael, then the only possible explanation is that he did not realize that he was looking at Lews Therin Telamon reborn.

And if that was the case, one wonders why Sammael never thought to himself. “And there he was, al'Thor right in front of me and I didn't kill him” in any of the books that followed.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-04-2012, 02:18 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Even if it was Sammael, there is no reason to think he would know who Rand is at this point. Semmirhage didn't know Mat even as late as WH.

I think the timing is more of an issue than anything. But it is interesting.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-04-2012, 02:57 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Even if it was Sammael, there is no reason to think he would know who Rand is at this point. Semmirhage didn't know Mat even as late as WH.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:31 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."
At the time Ishy showed his pictures to the DF social, he was not yet Nae'blis. Therefore, he would have been keen to maintain his position amongst the other Chosen, and his knowing the appearance of the ta'veren trio - as he definitely did, having met all of them in TAR - would have been a definite advantage. Why give it away? Remember, the Chosen are picked for selfishness. Ishy would have had to display at least some of that just to survive.

Indeed, Sammael may well have not known what he was looking at, and may well have not put two and two together even later on. Davram Bashere was unable to recognise Mazrim Taim, a man he knew well, after he'd been "ridden hard and put away wet". Was Rand not in a similar position that night in Baerlon? And did he not go through enough, in the few months between then and encountering Sammael - which he only did just before fighting and killing him, it's not like they were video chatting over Skype - that even his friends marked the change in him? It's entirely realistic that if that was him in Baerlon, he wouldn't recognise Rand.

The timing issue seems like a much stronger argument, but maybe hints at things we are as yet unaware of.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known

Last edited by Zombie Sammael; 03-04-2012 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Clarity
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:43 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

It could have been Sammael, wondering why Ishamael was interested in the farmboys and knowing nothing else. But the description leaves out Sammael's distinctive beard. Did he feel threatened enough to hide that?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:47 PM
confused at birth confused at birth is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: moronville NC
Posts: 681
confused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of lightconfused at birth is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
It could have been Sammael, wondering why Ishamael was interested in the farmboys and knowing nothing else.
Since some people think Taim was trained by Ishy maybe this is the same. He was just in the area doing a little research, felt Rand channel and went looking for an apprentice but couldnt figure out who it was without making a scene so he left.

Quote:
But the description leaves out Sammael's distinctive beard. Did he feel threatened enough to hide that?
He would have been used to the age of legends version of an electric razor so he probably messed it up the first time he used a straight edge razor and pair of scissors and had to shave the whole thing off and start again.

Anyway did he ever actually see Rand until the fight to the death?
He might have never known he missed his chance until it was to late.
__________________
Sarcasm is my art, your stupidity my inspiration

sanity is a cop out

A sure cure for seasickness is to sit under a tree. - Spike Milligan

Last edited by confused at birth; 03-04-2012 at 03:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:23 PM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 987
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

I'm thinking it's probably a mistake to conclude that scar and scar equals the same person - we're talking about an age where war and battle are fairly commonplace, and what with the dude being Whitecloak scum, it's not unlikely that he'd have earned that scar pillaging a village in the name of the Light.
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-04-2012, 11:01 PM
John Snow's Avatar
John Snow John Snow is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Altadena, California
Posts: 493
John Snow is just really niceJohn Snow is just really niceJohn Snow is just really niceJohn Snow is just really niceJohn Snow is just really niceJohn Snow is just really nice
Default YES!

and thank, Terez for alerting me to this thread. This has been a favorite theory of mine, for which I have been heaped with much ridicule over these many years. Someone came up with a refutation at some point which impressed me but did not entirely disenchant of this theory. I will add one further bit to this, namely that it was Sammael who brought the darkspawn into Baerlon, with the intent of stomping on the three ta'veren, who might or might not include the Dragon. I don't know how much he knew of what Moiraine knew, namely that there were the 3, one of whom etc etc, but he clearly thought this was a place where he could easily handle, ie with some trollocs and a coupla fades, three potential problems. The three survived not because Sammael was incompetent or not ruthless enough, but because they were ta'veren and because Moiraine, while not that powerful, was clever, quick, and resourceful.
__________________
Olde Phartes - not a part of global warming *
* elderly flati are heavier than air
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-04-2012, 11:28 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ishamel showed images of Rand, Mat and Perrin to the darkfriends at the meeting with Bors, did he not? If he can generate 3D images of the three ta'veren - even if he doesn't yet know which one is the Dragon - then don't you think he'd show them to the other Chosen? It helps to know what your target looks like, right?

Now, maybe there were some orders that Rand wasn not to be touched, okay fine. But if that was Sammael, then how come none of his POVS ever state "He had been there when al'Thor was nothing but an untrained pup, a lamb ready for the slaughter, and he'd done nothing. To the Pit with the Great Lord's prohibitions, al'Thor needed to die."
ZS pretty much said what needs to be said here. I'll just make a few points:
  1. The timing is really the most compelling, and the only conclusive evidence
  2. The second strongest point seems to be, to me at least, the pointlessness of the possibility. I can't imagine any larger purpose to Sammael in Baerlon.
  3. The whole 'why haven't we seen Sammael say things like: HE WAS UNDER MY FLAMING NOSE!' seems pretty flimsy to me. There is no reason to think that he would know Rand's face yet, and I doubt he has much of a memory for the faces of what he sees to be 'ignorant savage weaklings.' ZS is right: putting 2 and 2 together here may not be as simple as you think.

Anyway, on Sammael not knowing the face yet, I have a quote on a similar issue from as late as KoD, Ch.3:
Quote:
“If you want to kill someone,” he went on. “kill these two!” Suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces. One was tall and wide, with yellow eyes, of all things, while the other was not quite slender and wore a cheeky grin. Creations of Tel aran'rhiod- they moved stiffly and their expressions never altered. “Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them, and kill them.”


Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. “Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.”


“Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon,” Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. “So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-05-2012, 12:48 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by confused at birth View Post
He would have been used to the age of legends version of an electric razor so he probably messed it up the first time he used a straight edge razor and pair of scissors and had to shave the whole thing off and start again.

Anyway did he ever actually see Rand until the fight to the death?
He might have never known he missed his chance until it was to late.

He'll shave with what he knows: the OP. Or get a body servant. He knew about Mat as of aCoS, not just Rand. So he must have spies and probably had them early.

Quote:
Anyway, on Sammael not knowing the face yet, I have a quote on a similar issue from as late as KoD, Ch.3:
Is that proof of anything? What if she lied? She might have been avoiding confrontation with a taveren. Graendal's retort was very quick if you notice, and up till now, none of the forsaken have personally tried to kill either Mat or Perrin. Without using the TP, which they've been denied access to, I doubt they'll pull it off.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:55 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Is that proof of anything? What if she lied? She might have been avoiding confrontation with a taveren. Graendal's retort was very quick if you notice, and up till now, none of the forsaken have personally tried to kill either Mat or Perrin. Without using the TP, which they've been denied access to, I doubt they'll pull it off.
You don't honestly think it was Sammael in TEotW, do you?

No it's not proof. But even Ishamael was still learning their faces in TEotW. I doubt Sammael would be further ahead. I'm not sure Graendal's 'retort' was unusually quick. And it hardly seems to contradict my point in any case:
Quote:
Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. “Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.”
Especially since Graendal has perhaps the widest network of Darkfriend contacts aside from Morridin. So Graendal might very well know all three faces from her own contacts.

Semmirhage may have lied, but if she did, it changes little: she probably was accurate on Morridin not revealing the ta'veren before. In other words, if Semirhage feigned ignorance, her knowledge came from sources independent of Morridin. Because a lie about Morridin would be stupid indeed, as he was standing right there and would know. So even if it was just a ruse to justify inaction, it was a good ruse (and so ignorance was at least a somewhat reasonable excuse). And this is as late as KoD. Imagine how much more plausible it might be in TEotW.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-05-2012, 04:00 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,818
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Semirhage had been ignoring Mat for quite a while when he was busy being Tylin's pet. If Semirhage had known that he was necessary for the DR to have any chance at all, then she would have had him killed, or taken care of it herself. Yet there is no indication at all that she's ever considered doing that.

Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that she simply was not aware of his importance at all. And that's what she is referring to with her comment to Moridin: that if she had gotten this information, then she could (would) have used it.

Now, just a bit earlier, Sammael obviously knew about Mat. But then, there had been a very well publicised plan to have Mat lead the army which was supposedly going to kill Sammael. That kind of thing tends to draw the attention of someone who fancies himself a general.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-05-2012, 06:24 AM
Landro Landro is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 324
Landro is just really niceLandro is just really niceLandro is just really niceLandro is just really niceLandro is just really niceLandro is just really nice
Default

Early in the series the plot was to convert the Dragon. Killing wasn't really their aim at that point in the time line.

You could argue that Sammael could have disobeyed but either way, I don't think it was him. If Sammael was free at that point he would probably be too busy thinking of ways to gather a nation behind the DO. (Like Illian)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-05-2012, 07:13 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,818
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I don't think there was such an overarching Shadow policy in the early part of the series. It isn't until LoC that we get any indication that the DO has given a "do not kill the Dragon" order.

Until that time, it was all up to the individual hobbies of the Forsaken.
Ishamael wanted to turn the Dragon and kill all his supporters. So that's what he tried to do, and that is what his orders to the DFs were about.
Lanfear wanted to seduce the Dragon (or, better yet, have him seduce her). She didn't care about any of his friends, unless they stood in her way or could be useful to her.
Be'lal wanted to use the Dragon to take Callandor out of its encasement and then kill him.
Graendal wanted the Dragon to kill all her rivals, so that she would be unopposed after the DO had killed Rand.
Sammael, Demandred and Rahvin would have killed the Dragon as soon as they saw an opportunity to do so.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-05-2012, 07:36 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
You don't honestly think it was Sammael in TEotW, do you?

No it's not proof. But even Ishamael was still learning their faces in TEotW. I doubt Sammael would be further ahead.
I don't but with RJ, i think its always wise to keep an open mind.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Heinz Heinz is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 234
Heinz will become famous soon enoughHeinz will become famous soon enough
Default

My primary hesitation to think this could be one in the same person are comments made from Aginor and Balthamel (I forget which could speak, and which not) at the end of tEotW which imply that they are the first released due to their proximity to the 'outside', which also caused their decay.

I will grant that is implication, however, and no timeline is given. They may have been the first released.. months or a year before tEotW events began, so that by now the others are released too. Perhaps Sammael is scouting out people whom the Dark One is interested in. Perhaps he's scouting out the world at this point to get a handle on the current climate and decide where to set his power base up.

That does beg the question though: If other Forsaken are free at this time, especially Ishy himself, why were none of them in the Two Rivers on Winternight?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-05-2012, 09:28 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz View Post
That does beg the question though: If other Forsaken are free at this time, especially Ishy himself, why were none of them in the Two Rivers on Winternight?
Why would the others be there? It was Ishy's thing. And he wasn't even there! Why go to the remotest place in RL on winternight?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-05-2012, 09:32 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,818
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Why would the others be there? It was Ishy's thing. And he wasn't even there! Why go to the remotest place in RL on winternight?
"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still."

Lanfear at least did have a good reason for going there, it would seem.
And a bunch of the other Forsaken would have been quite willing to Travel to the remotest place if that would allow them to kill LTT. He hadn't been universally liked, after all.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.