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  #1  
Old 03-10-2012, 04:26 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Default Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Balefire Stream

How fast do weaves move? Is their speed determined by the strength of the channeller, the size of the weave, etc?
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:24 AM
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How fast do weaves move? Is their speed determined by the strength of the channeller, the size of the weave, etc?
I don't think there is enough evidence to draw even wild conclusions on this topic.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:42 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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I don't think there is enough evidence to draw even wild conclusions on this topic.
We might be able to generally extrapolate from some of the longer range weaving and how it's described happening, but we'd have to fabricate a timeframe generally based on how the action is occurring.

...and, in the end, it wouldn't wind up being any more accurate than our general impression, which is (for me) something along the lines of "Maybe 75 or 100 miles per hour?"
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:55 AM
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What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen balefire stream?
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:58 AM
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:05 AM
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Is it a Sharan channeler, or a Westlands channeler with the balefire?
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:06 AM
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...and, in the end, it wouldn't wind up being any more accurate than our general impression, which is (for me) something along the lines of "Maybe 75 or 100 miles per hour?"
It is also dependent on the weave -- your 75-100 mph might be a close approximation for something like a Bridge of Air but a gross underestimate of a long range lightning bolt (a la the trolloc killer in the Sone of Tear)

There are simple too many variables for a meaningful discussion. I would say that the "speed of a weave" is probably between one-inch-per-hour and greater-than-light-speed and don't think it can be generalized to closer tolerances.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
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It is also dependent on the weave -- your 75-100 mph might be a close approximation for something like a Bridge of Air but a gross underestimate of a long range lightning bolt (a la the trolloc killer in the Sone of Tear)

There are simple too many variables for a meaningful discussion. I would say that the "speed of a weave" is probably between one-inch-per-hour and greater-than-light-speed and don't think it can be generalized to closer tolerances.
Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning. Do you actually channel the bolt? Or is it simply creating electromagnetic poles at separate points, causing the bolt to form by itself? In the former, the weaves themselves travel at the standard weave speed; in the latter, they have to travel at the speed of light.
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Old 03-10-2012, 03:59 PM
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Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning. Do you actually channel the bolt? Or is it simply creating electromagnetic poles at separate points, causing the bolt to form by itself? In the former, the weaves themselves travel at the standard weave speed; in the latter, they have to travel at the speed of light.
Evidence would tend to support the latter.
We have seen fireballs dissipated when they have come into contact with power cancelling ter'angreal.
Lanfear/Cyndane's fireball on Alivia for example in WH.
The same can not be said for lightning strikes as evidenced by the one that killed Mat in tFoH.
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:11 PM
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Evidence would tend to support the latter.
We have seen fireballs dissipated when they have come into contact with power cancelling ter'angreal.
Lanfear/Cyndane's fireball on Alivia for example in WH.
The same can not be said for lightning strikes as evidenced by the one that killed Mat in tFoH.
I disagree. A lightning bolt is different from a fireball - it's an electric discharge rather than combustion. The function is different, and you'd only need weaves into the clouds to create lightning strikes that hit the ground.

Have we established whether Mat's ter'angreal can block weaves of Saidin? If not conclusively, that could explain how undirected lightning strikes could hit him - because the weaves never do.

I think it's far more sensible to conclude that the speed of the weaves is constant and that lightning uses some different technique than fireballs than to decide that you can move weaves at whatever you speed you want, but that that speed is capped variously depending on what is being woven. If you can move fire and air at extremely high speed for lightning, but only at 75-150 mph for a fireball - why the discrepancy? Is there some kind of ether that's resisting some weaves more than others? That's what I take issue with.
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:17 PM
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It's strongly implied that Mat's ter'angreal can break weaves of saidin in LoC, in a scene with Halima at Salidar. It may have been confirmed since then.

And lightning is indeed an 'indirect' use of the Power.
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  #12  
Old 03-10-2012, 04:23 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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It's strongly implied that Mat's ter'angreal can break weaves of saidin in LoC, in a scene with Halima at Salidar. It may have been confirmed since then.

And lightning is indeed an 'indirect' use of the Power.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:04 PM
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I disagree. A lightning bolt is different from a fireball - it's an electric discharge rather than combustion. The function is different, and you'd only need weaves into the clouds to create lightning strikes that hit the ground.
What are you disagreeing with? The latter option was that they are different.
If we're talking about what would be faster, it would depend on the distance to the target.
Obviously channeling a fireball that only has to travel 20 yards is going to hit before the weaves going into the sky to create the lightning bolt arrive there to manifest said bolt.
Seems to me that the only way the lightning bolt would arrive before the fireball is if the distance to the target was further away than the distance to create the bolt.
Assuming of course that the fireball travels at the same speed as a weave. If it doesn't then things get a bit more complicated but over a very short distance the fireball would still arrive sooner.

RJ himself has said that Lightning is an indirect attack and the bolt itself is not made of the power.

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Have we established whether Mat's ter'angreal can block weaves of Saidin? If not conclusively, that could explain how undirected lightning strikes could hit him - because the weaves never do.
It's conclusive, The scene with Halima/Aran'gar during the dance leaves no other conclusion.

Add to that...
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Q: Does Mat's medallion work against all types of Power, or just against saidar? Because you know he said in the book, something to be free of Aes Sedai.
A: Yes, that is what he said specifically, but you know, Aes Sedai were both male and female once, and so we don't know yet, and I will have to RAFO that.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:59 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Sorry, my confusion was rooted in the fact that I screwed up "former" and "latter" in my own post. I thought you were disagreeing with me, when you were actually agreeing.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:09 PM
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Sorry, my confusion was rooted in the fact that I screwed up "former" and "latter" in my own post. I thought you were disagreeing with me, when you were actually agreeing.
Yeah, kinda what I figured. I thought we were on the same page.

Just wanted to be clear and not jump on ya over it
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Yeah, kinda what I figured. I thought we were on the same page.

Just wanted to be clear and not jump on ya over it
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:23 PM
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Well that depends on the technique used for channeling lightning.
The trolloc killing weave in the stone of tear only seemed to be delayed by the need to distinguish friend from enemy -- i.e. the weave, as opposed to the lightning it caused, arrived throughout the Stone simultaneously, at "the speed of thought."

FWIW, The latter term is as meaningless as "the speed of the OP"
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:28 PM
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:49 PM
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The trolloc killing weave in the stone of tear only seemed to be delayed by the need to distinguish friend from enemy -- i.e. the weave, as opposed to the lightning it caused, arrived throughout the Stone simultaneously, at "the speed of thought."

FWIW, The latter term is as meaningless as "the speed of the OP"
If it can always travel at the speed of thought, then these elaborate battles that we see would be impossible. Even if reflexes with weaving the One Power are faster than physical reflexes (which wouldn't make sense), then these fists of air, fireballs, and blasts of Balefire would immediately strike the target, without the delay necessary for parry, block, or avoidance.
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:15 PM
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... fists of air, fireballs, and blasts of Balefire ...
Which is why this whole discussion is pointless.

Each of the weaves you named are woven close to the channeler and directed to the target. the ability to dodge or deflect the effect of the weave tells us nothing about the speed of the OP at all. forming the weave closer to the target might negate the ability to dodge or deflect.
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