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  #1  
Old 03-13-2012, 08:53 PM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
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Default Moiraine Questions from TDR

During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:00 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by Tollingtoy View Post
During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
The only entrances we know to Finnland are in Tear, Rhuidean, and at the Tower of Ghenjei. So no, she didn't go there. I think it's hinted at that she might have been guided to learning Balefire while at Adeleas' and Vandene's, but I'm not aware of anywhere that says it outright.

Be'lal and Sammael? Good question. I'm sure it's been discussed in other threads here, but I wasn't part of the discussion.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tollingtoy View Post
During my re-read I encountered a few questions that I don't seem to have answers for. How does Moiraine know that Sammael is in Illian and that Bel'al is in Tear? Also, she mentions learning balefire in the past year and "becoming more dangerous". What is she referring to? Did she make a trip to 'Finn land during one of her absences since leaving Emond's Field? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
It is likely that Moiraine went around to her various eyes and ears to get details about the situations in Illian and Tear. Combined with her chat with Loial about Bel'al, and her research on many topics (not just balefire) with Vandene and Adeleas, gave her the necessary clues.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:48 PM
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She probably confirmed Sammael via eavesdropping.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:31 AM
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It's possible she just roughed up some Darkfriends to get the information. This has always bothered me a little though. Not enough to call shenanigans, but her seeming absolute surety that it's Sammael and Be'lal, rather than "one of the male Forsaken" led me to believe that she shook down some underlings for information. That explains how Be'lal knew she was in Tear too.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:11 AM
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I lean toward the blue stone for the "sure" part. Sure she has her informants and could have gotten some DFs, but confirmation likely came from a trusted source - her own ears!

As for Balefire, she learnt a lot of things. Maybe some from the green man. And she wanted to try dreamwalking, how much did she know? I can't think there were no books on the topic - among ogier for one.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:59 AM
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You think she learned balefire from the Green Man? There was no time, surely. To learn anything. Moiraine may have learned things from him before (though I doubt any weave was among them), but her 'recent' knowledge is probably due to her stay with Vandene and Adeleas.

I thought it was from the books that Vandene and Adeleas owned, that Moiraine got balefire. I can't imagine any alternative. I doubt she would have had the chance to see it being weaved (by anyone).
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:07 PM
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She probably confirmed Sammael via eavesdropping.
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Originally Posted by NaeffOfDreams View Post
It's possible she just roughed up some Darkfriends to get the information. This has always bothered me a little though. Not enough to call shenanigans, but her seeming absolute surety that it's Sammael and Be'lal, rather than "one of the male Forsaken" led me to believe that she shook down some underlings for information. That explains how Be'lal knew she was in Tear too.
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I lean toward the blue stone for the "sure" part. Sure she has her informants and could have gotten some DFs, but confirmation likely came from a trusted source - her own ears!

As for Balefire, she learnt a lot of things. Maybe some from the green man. And she wanted to try dreamwalking, how much did she know? I can't think there were no books on the topic - among ogier for one.
Eavesdropping on whom? Darkfriends? Sammael himself? Remember, he was incognito as Lord Brend and only the Chosen (if even any of them at the time) knew Brend's alter ego. So Moiraine would have had to scry a meeting of Chosen where someone actually addressed him Sammael (not to mention the fact that RJ said when the Chosen met, they spoke in the Old Tongue).

It's more likely that she used espionage and deductive reasoning rather than risking using the One Power in Sammael's vicinity considering she worried about being detected using weaves far outside of Illian against the Darkhounds.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:13 PM
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All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:33 PM
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All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.
Sammael was more of an old tongue title given to him in the 2nd age, like Ishamael's, (Betrayer of Hope) than a given name. Anyway, if Moiraine had spied on a Chosen meeting, she would probably have mentioned that.

But again, I think she would have needed line of sight and therefore dangerous proximity to eavesdrop which would have been unacceptably risky, and Sammael would surely keep his apartments warded against spying anyway.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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Sammael is one of the better-described Forsaken. People are having nightmares, and there's a new Council member with the distinctive facial scar that appears shortly after she saw Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye. It's strongly implied that she was studying up both on rare/banned weaves as well as the Forsaken while she was with Vandene and Adeleas, so this one doesn't stretch plausibility at all.

Bel'al is more of a mystery, since she didn't even know he was a manipulative type until Loial told her (which was after she had already determined he was in Tear). Perhaps Verin tipped her off? =P
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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All good points, but I doubt that "Sammael" is translated differently in the Old Tongue. Usually names are identical (or very close) between languages.

Jack = Jacques = Joaqim, etc.
Sammael means "Betrayer of Hope".
And Ishamael means "Destroyer of Hope".
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:49 PM
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Sammael means "Betrayer of Hope".
And Ishamael means "Destroyer of Hope".
No, Ishamael means "Betrayer of Hope". Sammael means "Killer of Hope". I promise.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:48 PM
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Sammael=Destroyer.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:50 PM
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Eavesdropping on whom? Darkfriends? Sammael himself?
Sammael, obviously. As to how she overheard the name, use your imagination. It could have been many things.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:51 PM
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Ishamael is the Betrayer of Hope and Sammael is Destroyer of Hope
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:03 PM
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Sammael, obviously. As to how she overheard the name, use your imagination. It could have been many things.
I can't imagine Sammael being cautious enough to send a darkhound after an Aes Sedai while being careless enough to allow an Aes Sedai to eavesdrop on his private chats and get away. And since he probably knew that Moiraine was there (else how would he have known where to send the darkhound that was sniffing around Easing the Badger), he would have known to take other precautions.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:19 PM
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I can't imagine Sammael being cautious enough to send a darkhound after an Aes Sedai while being careless enough to allow an Aes Sedai to eavesdrop on his private chats and get away.
You say that as if he didn't send the Darkhounds after her because she was eavesdropping on him.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:31 PM
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You say that as if he didn't send the Darkhounds after her because she was eavesdropping on him.
They left the Inn right after Moiraine left to do whatever errand she was on, so there would have been no time for Moiraine to spy on Sammael then for him to send the darkhound to the Inn after figuring out where she was, before they stepped out the door to scope around and find the darkhound prints. In the very least, they would have run into the darkhound as he was making the tracks, but they obviously didn't.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:37 PM
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They left the Inn right after Moiraine left to do whatever errand she was on, so there would have been no time for Moiraine to spy on Sammael then for him to send the darkhound to the Inn after figuring out where she was, before they stepped out the door to scope around and find the darkhound prints. In the very least, they would have run into the darkhound as he was making the tracks, but they obviously didn't.
If Sammael had sent that particular Darkhound after her, she'd be dead. He didn't send Darkhounds after her until they left the city.
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