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  #1  
Old 03-16-2012, 07:53 AM
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Default Channeling Tuon

The Seanchan have a bit of a hangup over letting channelers operate freely. That is, they tell anyone who asks, because those people would use that power to grasp political power and oppress everyone. Therefor they make sure that channelers don't have the opportunity to get power by killing the males and collaring the females.

Now, what would that mean for Fortuona, if she started to channel?
Nothing at all, that's what. With her, the "she might grasp power" argument is irrelevant, as she's Empress already. Thus, she could actually openly channel without violating any of the official reasons against that.

Of course, prejudice is not always entirely sensible, but on the other hand, a lot of people do see the flaw in being prejudiced against an absolute monarch who can have you put to death whenever she wants.

So it would seem that the idea that when Tuon starts to channel then she has to free the damane is not quite solid.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:06 AM
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That is an interesting argument, and in this case, the Gonzo logic actually makes sense.

Consider this, however: by being a channelling Empress, Tuon would be demonstrating that channellers with political power are in fact not dangerous, and capable of ruling benevolently (by her own standards). There is thus no risk in allowing channellers the freedom to seize that power, or at least no more risk than there is among the non-channelling population. Leaving the Damane enslaved - or, taking account of the fact that many of the Damane now want to be collared, continuing to enslave new ones - would thus have no justification, especially if some other way of binding the existing channelling groups to the Crystal Throne could be found (though this last is not necessarily a desirable goal for anyone but the Seanchan).

While Tuon may not technically have an obligation to free the Damane, she may feel that she has a moral obligation. By her own standards, Tuon is actually quite a moral person.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Consider this, however: by being a channelling Empress, Tuon would be demonstrating that channellers with political power are in fact not dangerous, and capable of ruling benevolently (by her own standards). There is thus no risk in allowing channellers the freedom to seize that power, or at least no more risk than there is among the non-channelling population.
Well, that depends a bit on how they would formulate it.

If "channeling freely" were equated to "claiming the Crystal Throne", then for anyone apart from Empress it would still not be acceptable.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:04 AM
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Well, that depends a bit on how they would formulate it.

If "channeling freely" were equated to "claiming the Crystal Throne", then for anyone apart from Empress it would still not be acceptable.
That's dealt with easily enough, when you consider that since Tuon will already have the Crystal Throne when she starts to channel, she will not be seizing it. Since Tuon is the standard by which we are judging all other free channellers, it can reasonably be assumed that other free channellers will also refrain from seizing the Crystal Throne. The difficulty will be if Tuon goes on to seize other thrones, but her behaviour thus far suggests she will not; she prefers client states.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:05 AM
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There is the fact that it was a marath'damane who wiped out the previous Empress and her family in a brutal manner, showing that the Armies of the Night are a hazard to stable (though in this case despotic) rule, and playing into Seanchan prejudices against free-range channelers.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:03 AM
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I've always felt that the initial struggle of channeler vs non-channeler may have been about power. Regardless of what it was originally, the collaring of channelers is a way of life in Seanchan now. They have built an empire with damane being the basis of power in armies. The Empress owns and controls the majority, thus maintaining control. Tuon channeling will be a big deal, along with the knowledge that any sul'dam and anyone that can be a sul'dam can also channel.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:54 AM
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I think the key here is the word will get out (or has already) that sul'dam can channel. In the past, that was, if even known, a closely guarded secret.

We actually do not know if Tuon's mother could channel.
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  #8  
Old 03-16-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SauceyBlueConfetti View Post
I think the key here is the word will get out (or has already) that sul'dam can channel. In the past, that was, if even known, a closely guarded secret.

We actually do not know if Tuon's mother could channel.
Can I(or a mod) move the Tuon part of the OP strength debate here? Or would copying be better?

Anyway its likely Radhanan could channel. A good look at Tuon's pov in WH might help. First RJ gives us Talaan, mentioning her age(19) and the fact that she looks 14 or 15 to others. He has confirmed that slowing below 20 is rare(exceptional).

Then we jump to Tuon's pov where we find that two of Radhanan's children sparked (were found able to channel) and a third tested for suldam. Now at this point, its unlikely Radhanan would stop Tuon, whatever she knows about suldam and channeling. If she does, rumors could spread about Tuon that would be dangerous for Radhanan.

All it would take is someone putting two and two and making a grab for the throne (outside her lineage but with good reason). So she's silent and Tuon passes. If up to four of 12 (or more) children can channel, then people'll believe Radhanan can too, whatever she says. More people of that figure goes up.

But after telling us of Tuon's test, RJ drums in her appearance and youthfulness throughout WH. It isn't until CoT that we learn that Tuon is actually 19 going to 20 but appears younger than 16! And by KoD we learn Tuon can see weaves.

If Radhanan can't channel, then it means she is heterozygous for the trait and not homozygous, and the probability of any child being a sparker or learner depends entirely on chance. And her husband. But if both can then all of their kids would have the ability, and some would be sparkers (damane)and the rest learners (suldam).

But the imperial family are not tested, ostensibly because they can't be suldam! So we don't know how many of the remaining 9 could channel. And at least one is young enough that she could still spark).

Plus if Radhanan lets Tuon test, it would create a good cover for her if she channels unwittingly. The imperial family remains safe. If Tuon eventually turns out to be a sparker, then enough time would have passed that most would have forgotten the others who sparked.

Finally, the crystal throne knew the origin of the adam from the beginning. There is motivation enough for them to keep the suldam secret, and rather dangerous if they don't. Equally dangerous not to pass down the information to future Emperors/Empresses. If they don't know, they might test a suldam in public view and...

So what are the odds? Two sparkers known, a third with ability who could be a sparkers as strong as Talaan, and a fourth unknown? Out of twelve! Is she likely a learner. I think it would be quite a reasonable turn of events.

ETA: I might be wrong about the sparkers though, i just rechecked and it isn't specifically written that way, it could be they were made property for some other reason.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:08 PM
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Or, perhaps, she just looks young because she's petite?

Rand remarks on this easy mistake here:

Quote:
TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 35 - A Halo of Blackness
Was this the Daughter of the Nine Moons? This child? Rand frowned as they approached, but realized that she wasn't actually a child, just a very small woman. Dressed in black clothing, she had dark skin, like one of the Sea Folk. There were gray-white ashes on the cheeks of her calm, round face. Upon close inspection, she appeared to be near his own age.
IE: She hasn't slowed, she just looks younger than her age at a first glance due to her size. Rand correctly judges her age as soon as he is closer to her.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Or, perhaps, she just looks young because she's petite?

Rand remarks on this easy mistake here:



IE: She hasn't slowed, she just looks younger than her age at a first glance due to her size. Rand correctly judges her age as soon as he is closer to her.
Tuon herself disagrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch
Tuon knew she herself would never have such a commanding presence. Her eyes were too large, and a liquid brown. When she forgot to keep a stern mask, her heart-shaped face belonged on a mischievous child. The...

...Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!
Rand did get Taim's age wrong. Maybe BS was just emphasizing his poor judgement of character age, who knows?
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:33 AM
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Does anyone have a quote that states the imperial family is never tested? I would like to check it out.

Always thought it was quite clear Tuon is a learner. I mean she says it herself she could learn but chooses not to...
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suttree View Post
Does anyone have a quote that states the imperial family is never tested?
Just this:
Quote:
Many had thought it odd when Tuon tested for sul'dam on reaching adulthood, though none could gainsay her, then. Except her mother, who had allowed it by remaining silent.
That doesn't say she was never tested for the a'dam, but many believe it is implied.

To the OP, I have argued as much before. I remember getting into a bit of a flamewar with Yuri on this subject.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:52 PM
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I always assumed the Imperial family were tested for the a'dam. There's a few reasons why they wouldn't be tested as sul'dam. Mainly, unless they decide to take it up as a hobby like Tuon, there's no reason to if they aren't going to be sul'dam. Also, and I might be mistaken on this one, aren't sul'dam property? As for the a'dam, I just can't imagine the Imperial family being ok with the possibility of a marath'damane Empress. I don't think they'd exempt themselves, they feel the same way about marath'damane as the rest of the Seanchan. A member of the Imperial family would probably just consider it their duty to become a damane and their name stricken from the histories.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:37 AM
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Also, and I might be mistaken on this one, aren't sul'dam property? As for the a'dam, I just can't imagine the Imperial family being ok with the possibility of a marath'damane Empress.
No suldam aren't property, damane are. But the origin of the adam is the problem. It was made by a marath damane (an AS) who collared one of her sisters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tGH
Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor he was not Emperor then, of course since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."
Obviously the strength of Luthair's empire depends on the truth about suldam and damane being suppressed. He could have set up the seekers to keep this truth hidden. If that is the case, the truth is likely handed down from Empress to heir. If Tuon hasn't been told, its possible it isn't yet time or the throne already knows she's a sparker and therefore will be leashed eventually.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
No suldam aren't property, damane are. But the origin of the adam is the problem. It was made by a marath damane (an AS) who collared one of her sisters.



Obviously the strength of Luthair's empire depends on the truth about suldam and damane being suppressed. He could have set up the seekers to keep this truth hidden. If that is the case, the truth is likely handed down from Empress to heir. If Tuon hasn't been told, its possible it isn't yet time or the throne already knows she's a sparker and therefore will be leashed eventually.
I don't understand your insistence that Luthair and his progeny MUST have known that the sul'dam could learn to channel. Seems like a huge logic leap, and you're pinning the rest of his theory on those tenuous grounds.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:56 PM
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I don't understand your insistence that Luthair and his progeny MUST have known that the sul'dam could learn to channel. Seems like a huge logic leap, and you're pinning the rest of his theory on those tenuous grounds.
Well, considering that the one that created the first adam, brought in a fellow channeler on the other end of it, and was eventually collared as well, and the fact that only a woman that can channel (spark or learn) is able to use the adam, it really is not much of a leap.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:21 PM
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Well, considering that the one that created the first adam, brought in a fellow channeler on the other end of it, and was eventually collared as well, and the fact that only a woman that can channel (spark or learn) is able to use the adam, it really is not much of a leap.
Tuon making the distinction of her "choosing" not to learn may be a hint that they know the difference. Aside from that however I can't think of anything to give us any indication that they know the diff between learners and sparkers.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:38 PM
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An interesting question is whether or not we can call Tuon a channeler yet.

Yes, she has the ability but she's a Learner and so far as we know, she hasn't touched the Source yet. Which means that it's still possible for her to go her whole life without ever doing so.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:57 PM
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That appears to be what she did in the future that Aviendha saw. I tend to think it will turn out differently, though.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:25 AM
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Tuon making the distinction of her "choosing" not to learn may be a hint that they know the difference. Aside from that however I can't think of anything to give us any indication that they know the diff between learners and sparkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by verin mathwin
The BWB states that Luthair knew that sul'dam were learners, but that the knowledge probably died out in a few hundred years. Of course that doesn't mean it did...
How come no one has ever tried the adam on the suldam in about 1000years or more? Far more likely that its been done, and the experimenters are likely to have been buried. Whether Tuon knows or not makes no difference.

And she's no different from those she despises if she holds on to power as the empress and condemning the AS for craving power. And yet she's practically AS!

Egwene's plan to unite the channeling societies is one of the most dangerous things that the seanchan will face, now or post TG, if there's no peace before Rand goes to SG.
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