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  #1  
Old 03-24-2012, 09:06 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Default Did Elayne Screw Perrin Over?

Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them as the guardian of his children until they are of age.

Last edited by Cortar; 03-25-2012 at 02:56 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2012, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them to control him until his children can.
Tenobia seems unlikely to produce an heir, so Faile, or her children will inherit the throne of Saldaea. And while Perrin did initially balk at Elayne's offer of a pre-emptive engagement between her soon to be born children (or at least one of them) and Perrin's as yet to be conceived, certainly that would nonetheless still make quite a bit of sense. Doubtless Faile will badger him about that until he finally agrees, or, as was the case with Masema, if he is too dumb to ever do the expedient thing, she'll just take care of the arrangements herself.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
Elayne made Perrin "Rand's steward" in the Two Rivers. Great, but Rand is supposed to die soon and guess who is carrying his babies and plans to marry him? So basically Elayne gave Perrin the Two Rivers for what, a few months at the best? If Elayne cannot take control of them again as wife of the Lord of the Two Rivers (Rand), then surely she will take control of them to control him until his children can.
Not if Perrin's political authority is legalized with Elayne's proposed understanding of his taxation privileges & exemption. Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust administered by Perrin's line, so the Dragon's more of a figurehead. Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.
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  #4  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:31 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by finn View Post
Not if Perrin's political authority is legalized with Elayne's proposed understanding of his taxation privileges & exemption. Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust administered by Perrin's line, so the Dragon's more of a figurehead. Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.
That's not how trusts work.
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  #5  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:46 AM
Ann Kalagon Ann Kalagon is offline
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Default Elayne obsessed with her political power

I think she did. She was essentially hostile to Perrin and Faile; Elayne is all about power and control. What the 7 hells has Andor ever done for the Two Rivers? Nothing.

How very little time has she spent on thoughts of why the Pattern spun out three ta'veren from Two Rivers? She's not much on deep thought generally. The significance of Perrin and Mat in the coming Last Battle never even crosses her mind.

It's "all about her" and what she can get all her servants to do for her. If Aes Sedai were originally the servants of all, and Rand's arc politically may work to restore that, what use is Elayne?
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:30 AM
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That's not how trusts work.
Explain.
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  #7  
Old 03-25-2012, 01:33 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by finn View Post
Explain.
To begin with, the right to trust benefits and the trust corpus is inheritable. If Rand is the beneficiary, his children become beneficiaries upon his death, and Elayne is a conservator over their assets while they are minors, so the non-legal analysis that you disagreed with by bringing up legal principles was actually legally correct.

Last edited by Seth Baker; 03-25-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
To begin with, the right to trust benefits and the trust corpus is inheritable. If Rand is the beneficiary, his children become beneficiaries upon his death, and Elayne is a conservator over their assets while they are minors, so the non-legal analysis that you disagreed with by bringing up legal principles was actually legally correct.
Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2012, 02:11 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?
Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.

Furthermore, Andoran common law is much like English common law, which further benefits my argument.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2012, 02:23 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by finn View Post
Could you cite your sources on Andoran trust law or explain how any of this applies to the mechanisms of the trust as proposed by Elayne?
I don't know anything about Andoran trust law. I know a lot about the English and American common laws of Trusts. Incidentally Andor is based on Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and their legal systems appear to track them very closely.

So, could you please cite your source for your assumption that Andoran trust law differs significantly from the law of trusts under the common law?


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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.

Furthermore, Andoran common law is much like English common law, which further benefits my argument.
Don't ask him that. This is how this thread and the Perrin tangent in the other thread are progressing:

1. finn makes unsubstantiated claim about how law works.
2. Seth Baker makes statement of how common law works.
3. finn claims that Andor's law operates differently from common law without citing the source of any of his absurd presumptions.

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Originally Posted by finn View Post
Rand would have to be reborn to call upon the trust.... Rand's wife/descendants would not have any claim.
This is specifically what I'm asking about. This is not how common law operates. Please provide your source.

If you can't point to where in the book RJ wrote some kind of treatise about Andoran trusts and estates, I'm just going to be forced to assume that you're making shit up again.

Last edited by Seth Baker; 03-25-2012 at 02:31 AM.
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2012, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
Well since Elayne is the Queen I would imagine she would be very knowledge with such things, or have advisors who were, and they would draw the trust up so it would work like I suggested.
Since she is Queen, I would imagine that she made her statement about the Two Rivers tax trust in full knowledge of the law or else her proposal would be enacted as a special case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
I don't know anything about Andoran trust law. I know a lot about the English and American common laws of Trusts. Incidentally Andor is based on Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and their legal systems appear to track them very closely.
...
This is specifically what I'm asking about. This is not how common law operates. Please provide your source.

If you can't point to where in the book RJ wrote some kind of treatise about Andoran trusts and estates, I'm just going to be forced to assume that you're making shit up again.
Ok, so you didn't bother to reread the chapter that was the subject of this thread to know the specific lines. But that justifies an attempt to apply irrelevant data onto fictional canon, how?

Quote:
So, could you please cite your source for your assumption that Andoran trust law differs significantly from the law of trusts under the common law?
Here:
Quote:
"The taxes," Elayne said as if she hadn't heard. "You put them into a trust to be administered by Perrin and his line, with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them. Yes. That gives us a legal excuse for your exemption. Of course, Perrin will have authority to dip into those funds to improve the Two Rivers. Roads, food stores, defenses."

Quote:
1. finn makes reference about how fictional law works based on statements from canon.
2. Seth Baker makes vague statement of how common law works, assumes it applies to a fictional setting or the scenario in question.
3. finn cites source from canon.
Fixed.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:16 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Since she is Queen, I would imagine that she made her statement about the Two Rivers tax trust in full knowledge of the law or else her proposal would be enacted as a special case.
??? No, I was saying that she would deceive Perrin by leaving this loophole in (once Rand dies she will receive control of the Two Rivers directly). The passage doesn't fit either side of our argument. Thus its up to idle speculation.

Quote:
Ok, so you didn't bother to reread the chapter that was the subject of this thread to know the specific lines. But that justifies an attempt to apply irrelevant data onto fictional canon, how?
Like I said, this doesn't prove it either way, EXCEPT she very obviously doesn't say anything about what happens when Rand dies. We all know its going to be soon so I think she specifically misleads Perrin by making it sound like he will have control of the Two Rivers for a while.
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:21 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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The general assumption seems to be that the Dragon's possessions do not get automatically inherited by his children. In that way, he is more like what the Holy Roman Emperor used to be than like an ordinary king, though obviously he wasn't elected to his post by a bunch of nobles.

Otherwise there might be a war between Andor and the Aiel in the making, over which child precisely inherits the Two Rivers.
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  #14  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:29 AM
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Elayne specifically says the taxes are in trust administered by Perrin, which makes him the trustee (the legal term for the administrator of a trust). Rand has the beneficial interest in the trust. Nothing in the text suggests that the trust works any differently from the way it does at English or American Common Law (or, for all I know, any other Common Law), so at the death of the beneficiary, the equitable interest would pass to his heirs, but Perrin's line would retain the legal interest. In fact, the only significant difference between this and a real trust is that it's settled for a period "until the Dragon returns", which breaks the doctrine of limitations of time by making the period indefinite, but I'm not sure that even needs to apply in this case.

Seth is correct in his analysis. Finn seems not to quite understand what he's talking about.
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  #15  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:30 AM
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??? No, I was saying that she would deceive Perrin by leaving this loophole in (once Rand dies she will receive control of the Two Rivers directly). The passage doesn't fit either side of our argument. Thus its up to idle speculation.

Like I said, this doesn't prove it either way, EXCEPT she very obviously doesn't say anything about what happens when Rand dies. We all know its going to be soon so I think she specifically misleads Perrin by making it sound like he will have control of the Two Rivers for a while.
I don't think there's an intent at deception from Elayne. It's possible but not practical on her part as it would inevitably result in the rebellion she wants to avoid. She admits to them that she loves Rand, Faile too speculates about her pregnancy so the issue of his children potentially taking over seems fairly obvious for all parties not to consider. If their children marry, the issue becomes moot.

The passage quoting Elayne suggests that the figurative authority would rest in the Dragon and be contingent on him being reborn. I can't see "his return" referring to anything other than a post-death scenario. So if Perrin's authority is based on that, then there isn't much room for a loophole. Faile at least is trained to pick up on any wording problems before their agreement is published.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Elayne specifically says the taxes are in trust administered by Perrin, which makes him the trustee (the legal term for the administrator of a trust). Rand has the beneficial interest in the trust. Nothing in the text suggests that the trust works any differently from the way it does at English or American Common Law (or, for all I know, any other Common Law), so at the death of the beneficiary, the equitable interest would pass to his heirs, but Perrin's line would retain the legal interest. In fact, the only significant difference between this and a real trust is that it's settled for a period "until the Dragon returns", which breaks the doctrine of limitations of time by making the period indefinite, but I'm not sure that even needs to apply in this case.
What about the part that says, "with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them"

Suggests to me that the Dragon (as opposed to Rand) alone is beneficiary, not his heirs. It's not just a time limitation, it calls for his return so he can reclaim it.

Last edited by finn; 03-25-2012 at 06:45 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:33 AM
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I don't think there's an intent at deception from Elayne. It's possible but not practical on her part as it would inevitably result in the rebellion she wants to avoid. She admits to them that she loves Rand, Faile too speculates about her pregnancy so the issue of his children potentially taking over seems fairly obvious for all parties not to consider. If their children marry, the issue becomes moot.

The passage quoting Elayne suggests that the figurative authority would rest in the Dragon and be contingent on him being reborn. I can't see "his return" referring to anything other than a post-death scenario. So if Perrin's authority is based on that, then there isn't much room for a loophole. Faile at least is trained to pick up on any wording problems before their agreement is published.
That isn't how trusts work.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:25 AM
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Frankly, I think that "the Dragon" here is intended to be a legal fiction which smoothes over all sorts of complications that could otherwise lead to war. Plus, with the Dragon being someone who has the proven ability to return after death, I'm not at all sure that the concept of heirs would apply, and I think that is how Elayne intends it.

So the situation is quite simple:
-Perrin is in charge of the Two Rivers. Officially as Steward, actually as its lord.
-The Dragon is the official lord.
-If the Dragon survives TG (which Elayne hopes for, but does not expect), then he and Perrin can sort things out. That wouldn't lead to war, nor would it be something which had big legal repercussions.
-If the Dragon does not survive, but returns anyway, then there still wouldn't be many who would be inclined to fight his claim. Thus, no problem either.
-If the Dragon does not survive, and does not return, then he might return in the future. Thus, Perrin (and his heirs) continues stewarding, and there are no legal problems.
-If one of the Dragon's heirs wants to contest Perrin's right to be in charge, then that heir is free to prove that the Dragon won't return himself. As that's an impossible standard to meet, this should not be a big legal problem for Perrin.

All in all, no worries.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:33 AM
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Personally I think the control of Two Rivers was given to Rand only in his Dragon Reborn capacity (both Morgase and Elayne said the plan was to give Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn, not Rand al'Thor). and is not inheritable. Mostly because if it is inheritable this would make Faile a complete political idiot for not realising she and Perrin were getting tricked. Perrin is an ignorant doofus when it comes to stuff like this, but Faile is supposed to be much more competent and knowledgeable about politics and law. And in the same chapter she thought that the father of Elayne's baby is probably Rand.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:43 AM
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It is, quite literally, a simple trust of the most basic kind. Obviously that has various effects that are beneficial to all involved, and if it is heritable, then eventually it is possible that the legal and beneficial interests could reside in one party, and the trust would no longer exist. But Elayne did not screw Perrin over, and nor is there any particular complexity or machination behind it.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:04 AM
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There seems to be a lot of hostility towards Elayne and what she did even thought she have very good reasons for her actions. Perrin is popular and as one of the main characters we tend to identify with him but look at the world throught Elayne's eyes for a moment.

Andor is the most powerful nation in the Westland or at least it was before the comming of the Seanchan. Elayne as a ruler has to look at more than just what is going to happen tomorrow or the next day she has to take long term events into account.

If she allows any person to emerge onto the national or international stage and take over a chunk of Andor, even part that belongs to the nation only on paper, that sets a very bad precedent. There is bound to be a lot of chaos during and after the last battle assuming the Shadow is defeated.

The Seanchan are a major threat and have made it very clear that they goal is to unite all of the Westlands under their rule. Elayne needs to grow Andor's strenght to be able to resist this future theat not let anyone start carving up parts of it and leaving what is left weaker. This rational is probably behind the reasoning why she wants the Kin making gateways, wants to control or at least have a head start on the use of cannons and why she needs to secure Cairhien. I believe that she even has an idea of trying to get some degree of control of the Black Tower before anyone else does.

Now as far as trust law goes I confess that was one topic I always hated in law school and tended to try to pay as little as attention to as possible but from my limited knowledge of the subject who the beneficiaries and the trustees will be can be decided by the trust instrument (the document that sets up the trust). The trust can be for the benefit of the Dragon Reborn, or the Dragon Reborn and his issue (kids) when he dies or what ever way the creators fancy as long as it is not too uncertain.

Likewise any trust that is going to last a while should make provision for replacing the trustees for when they dies, become sick or simply want to retire. Again one of the simplest ways is to give the Trustees the power to appoint their successors. You could limit their choices of potential successors to a pool of candidates but again that would depend on who the trust instrument is created. If all else fails in Ireland at least you can apply to the courts to apoint a new trustee if the need arrives and there is no clear mechanism in the trust instrument. In this case assuming Andoran law = English common law Elayne as queen would be the font of justice and such an application would be made to a Judge or failing that the Throne itself.

So it would be quite possible that Elayne (assuming Andoran law is like common law) to set up the trust so that it Perrin will be the trustee and he can appoint his sucessors and the beneficiar would be Rand or the people of the Tower Rivers or even a potential Dragon Reborn reborn again in the future.
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