art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-24-2012, 10:48 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Cortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of light
Default Aviendha's Wayforward Adventure

How many years would you consider "many years"

There is a point to this inane question.

In the future of Randland that Aviendha saw in the pillars in Rhuidian, her children talk about the old empress being a wise rule, but she was dead at the time of the POV.
Later one we learn it was 17 years since the last battle.


The question then, since Toun and Matt are supposed to live through the last battle and have many adventures and romances together, how many years is considered, "many."

Is there enough time for these things to happen? If not then does this mean this particular cannot possibly happen?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-25-2012, 05:27 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

RJ had been planning to write a few outriggers which centered on Mat and Tuon, five to ten years after the Last Battle. This would then describe how the Seanchan mainland was reconquered. Which, I think, would provide plenty of room for adventures, and maybe even some romance. Yet, at the same time, it would also allow Tuon to have died within a 17 year time frame. So there is no inconsistency here.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-25-2012, 05:55 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

It's also possible that the Pillar future was a 'maybe', so when and if the outriggers come to be, it may be in spite of/instead of the Pillar viewings. (So, they may not be able to exist together.)
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:16 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
It's also possible that the Pillar future was a 'maybe', so when and if the outriggers come to be, it may be in spite of/instead of the Pillar viewings. (So, they may not be able to exist together.)
Possible? It's all but guaranteed that that future will be changed. "Chekov's Prophecy".
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:40 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,867
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I think that Aviendha's vision is related to the things that were seen in the Portal Stone Ride in TGH. Or, to quote the book that Loial quoted in when explaining Portal Stones to Rand: 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of "if," between the worlds that might be.'

Then, when you know about such a possibility, you do something different, thus making sure that it does not come true.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:43 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Moved from the question thread, since we haven't had a discussion on this in a while, really.

Agreed that it's pretty much guaranteed that the future will change from what Aviendha saw. The question is, what other factors are involved besides Aviendha? Assuming that, in the future she saw, she didn't have the advantage of foresight. Obviously she's going to do something to try to change it. But what else was different?

For one thing, Mat wasn't even mentioned. Assuming that Aviendha saw the most likely future at the point she touched the columns...well, consider how terribly bad the odds were for Mat when he entered Ghenjei. And while Moiraine and Mat are obviously important, there are loopholes. Rand would almost surely fail without Moiraine, meaning there's a small chance he could do it without her. And as for Mat, the Eelfinn seemed very excited about Mat becoming the "center of everything", as if it wasn't all that certain he would.

I think what the Aviendha vision does more than anything is throw a completely different perspective on the prophecies. It shows us that they can be fulfilled in various ways. For example, the prophecy that the Aiel are going to take back their places of old. How was that fulfilled in the future Aviendha saw? Perhaps only by the Aiel having served Lews Therin, or Rand. The last Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends. But it's probably going to have a much more profound fulfillment in the actual future.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
NaeffOfDreams NaeffOfDreams is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 71
NaeffOfDreams is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I think the biggest strength of this section, aside from the obvious worldbuilding coolness, is the indeterminate nature of it. If we could say for certain that it would/could be averted, then a lot of the emotional impact would be lost. Contrariwise, if we accept that there is nothing Aviendha can do, then all hope is lost and we may as well skip her sections in aMoL. But the fact that we really don't know what the future holds makes this section work beautifully, and I hope we don't find out. Aviendha sums it up nicely in ToM, Ch. 49 Court of the Sun
Quote:
"Can I change it?" she asked.
If I can't, she thought, will that stop me from trying?
As an aside and disclaimer, my absolute favorite parts of the series are the ones that take place outside the chronology of the main story. Both Rhuidean glass column runs, Rand's Portal Stone montage in Worlds That Might Be from TGH, and even some of Mat's old memories. Of course, I'm a sucker for short stories and works that drop the reader in with no map or guidebook (did somebody say Malazan?).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeffOfDreams View Post
I think the biggest strength of this section, aside from the obvious worldbuilding coolness, is the indeterminate nature of it. If we could say for certain that it would/could be averted, then a lot of the emotional impact would be lost. Contrariwise, if we accept that there is nothing Aviendha can do, then all hope is lost and we may as well skip her sections in aMoL. But the fact that we really don't know what the future holds makes this section work beautifully, and I hope we don't find out. Aviendha sums it up nicely in ToM, Ch. 49 Court of the Sun


As an aside and disclaimer, my absolute favorite parts of the series are the ones that take place outside the chronology of the main story. Both Rhuidean glass column runs, Rand's Portal Stone montage in Worlds That Might Be from TGH, and even some of Mat's old memories. Of course, I'm a sucker for short stories and works that drop the reader in with no map or guidebook (did somebody say Malazan?).
I agree that once you accept the future will change, the sense of overwhelming dread is lessened. However, I think that is counter-balanced by curiosity as to what Avi will do to change the future, and the knowledge that she could, in her ignorance, accidentally unleash a future that is even worse. Prophecy is a whore with teeth, after all.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-26-2012, 02:10 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

I really, really doubt it will be left hanging completely. At least one thing will happen that is verifiably different.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-26-2012, 02:32 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I really, really doubt it will be left hanging completely. At least one thing will happen that is verifiably different.
As I understand your interpretation of the "Three in the boat" prophecy(s), doesn't Avi's future actually fail to fulfil some of the Prophecies of the Dragon? I'm thinking specifically of the idea that Tarmon Gai'don has to literally be the Last Battle (for a good long time). In Avi's future there were battles only a few years after it. Please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting you.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:06 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
As I understand your interpretation of the "Three in the boat" prophecy(s), doesn't Avi's future actually fail to fulfil some of the Prophecies of the Dragon? I'm thinking specifically of the idea that Tarmon Gai'don has to literally be the Last Battle (for a good long time). In Avi's future there were battles only a few years after it. Please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting you.
It's not my interpretation that presents the logical inconsistency. It's the standard interpretation. And it's Nicola's Foretelling, not the KC. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." In Aviendha's vision of the future, the Last Battle was certainly an end to the battle between the Seanchan and the Randlanders. The land was still divided by the Return, so that fits. But why wouldn't they be done with battle, and why would the future still be balanced on the edge of a blade? In other words, there is a logical inconsistency if you believe that 'great battle' refers to the Last Battle. If you believe it refers to something else, then there's no problem really.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It's not my interpretation that presents the logical inconsistency. It's the standard interpretation. And it's Nicola's Foretelling, not the KC. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." In Aviendha's vision of the future, the Last Battle was certainly an end to the battle between the Seanchan and the Randlanders. The land was still divided by the Return, so that fits. But why wouldn't they be done with battle, and why would the future still be balanced on the edge of a blade? In other words, there is a logical inconsistency if you believe that 'great battle' refers to the Last Battle. If you believe it refers to something else, then there's no problem really.
You are right, sorry. I was misremembering your argument about that particular prophecy.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:00 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Possible? It's all but guaranteed that that future will be changed. "Chekov's Prophecy".
lol. Yes, this was my thought. My point was that this possible future will not happen, not that it cannot happen.

Concerning the larger issue, I see the two groups of viewings as complementary. What Aviendha saw was what would happen unless something changed, ie that is where the True World is heading at the moment. But, the Mirror Worlds are different, and so are the viewings they generate. Since Mirror Worlds are created by branching out from various turning points, in a way the viewings experienced en route to Toman Head are every single impossible future from that given moment (Rand wasn't raised as an Aiel, for instance). So, if you think of it as some kind of mega-sudoku, the path demanded by the Wheel is seen by what isn't there. And this seems to be the case: Mat betrayed Rand, Rand always failed, Ingtar never found redemption. Perrin may have always lost himself in the Wolf, Verin may have always gone over in truth (or, a possible theoryette of mine: Verin may have always withheld the ter'angreal).

But Ingtar found redemption (as did Verin), Mat remained loyal, and Rand will succeed.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:39 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Cortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Related to this discussion:

"Why is the KC, other Aes Sedai prophesies, and the things Min see set in stand (they ARE going to happen) but then this viewing is changable?"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:23 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

My best guess is that this is closer to time travel and seeing the general future than it is to 'prophecy'. The pillars basically seemed to run a whole world simulation on fast forward, then just pass on some significant events that it registered. While 'prophecy' generally seems to predict only things that *must* be, events of such significance that the prophecies come to be of their own accord. The symbolic language may be computationally necessary, if the event predicted cannot yet be solved for with available info.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Even dreams are only possibilities.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:50 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Even dreams are only possibilities.
It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.

And I think it comes down to the way they are gathered. All of the absolute prophecies require a Talent and they are frequently highly symbolic (aelfinn, Min, foretellings). I think that anything that can be predicted with certainty demands a certain degree of inherent significance. Dreams (both Egwene and Perrin varieties) require Talents, are only slightly less spontaneous than the absolutes, and are also often symbolic, if generally less esoteric than the absolutes.

But the portal stone viewings and those of the pillars do not seem to require a special Talent, and are nether spontaneous nor symbolic. So it almost seems like some kind of bruteforced 'most probable outcome' generator, just with complementary results (1 most likely atm vs. Everything else). And as such, it is naturally not fixed. The level of preciscion that these non-symbolic predictions offer (and this includes Dreams, to some extent) comes at a price, and that price is accuracy/certainty.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:15 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.
And the Rings of Rhuidean. Some types of prophecy are absolute; some aren't.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:04 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Lol. Not exactly, obviously. And the question was about absolutes anyway. But it fits with the others I called complementary: it is literal as opposed to symbolic, arbitrarily available, and does not require any particular Talent. And it is (again) most similar to some kind of simulator, and isn't really prophetic. It's more like running every possible scenario for a rat in a maze (listing every possible outcome) and yet knowing nothing about the actual route the rat will ultimately take. Any prophetic elements are artificial, probably more the result of frequency analysis than anything. But it is of a feather with the other artificial propheciy generators: single most probable, every impossible, and now every possible (all calculated from a given moment, of course).

But back to your point: since it's showing multiple futures, there must be an AND or an OR between each. Since they (necessarily) contradict each other, it must be OR. Now here is where we seem to diverge: I think it is a massive and certain either-or prophecy, but you say it is just a possibility. I'm curious what you think the nature of these futures are. Why can't the rings simulate them? Is it a sort of stedding/blight/ToG thing? I assume, of course, that you aren't referring to a DO victory, as that is the bane of all prophecy.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-27-2012, 11:48 AM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is online now
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,008
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
It's more like 'only dreams' than 'even dreams'. Only dreams and now (probably) the pillar viewings.

And I think it comes down to the way they are gathered.

The Crystal Columns showed absolutely accurate and unchangeable episodes from the past. Assuming that they even can show the future. why would they suddenly show an alterable future?

Personally, I believe that Aviendha's second trip through the Crystal Columns was a hallucination/post-hypnotic suggestion and never really happened. Everything known and/or deduced about how the Crystal Columns worked prior to ToM suggests that the columns should NOT be able show the future OR any future shown would be as absolute as its depictions of the past.


Aviendha's encounter with Nakomi reads like a drug-enhanced or hypnotic interrogation and if Aviendha was interrogated in a hypnotic trance, then Nakomi had the means and opportunity to implant a suggestion.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.