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  #1  
Old 03-27-2012, 02:20 AM
77jester 77jester is offline
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Default Padan Fain's role in the last battle

I had an interesting epiphany the other day during my reread of the series. In tGS Rand and Min repeatedly mused on what could be done to seal the dark one. In ch 22 he has a conversation with Lews Therin in his head
Quote:
She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.
She? Rand asked.
The pretty on. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.

Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing....
What do we do after that? Rand asked.
We die. You promised we could die!
Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said.
You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death.
Yes... nothing, Lews Therin began to think that way... No, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.
Lews Therin began to weep.
Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.
Silence.
There were two schools of thought on how to seal the Dark One. In ch 47 of tGS, it was mentioned that the Choedan Kal were created for the other opinion.
Quote:
I told them... Lews Therin whispered.
Told them what? Rand demanded.
That the plan would not work, Lews Therin said, voice very soft. That brute force would not contain him. They called my plan brash, but these weapons they created, thery were too dangerous. Too frightening. No man should hold such Power...
So if brute force isn't the answer, and you can't touch the Dark One directly with the power without risk of a counter stroke. What options are left?
That's when it hit me... all of the foreshadowing in the books. Padan Fain
We've seen the way the evil of Shadar Logoth repels/fights the evil of the Dark One. In aCoS ch 36 Flinn describes it
Quote:
These are alike, but different, as if there's two kinds of infection at work. Only it isn't infection; it's... darkness. I can't think of a better word.
He continues after he heals Rand
Quote:
I couldn't really touch what's wrong. I sort of sealed them away from him, for a time, anyhow. It won't last. They're fighting each other , now. Maybe they'll kill off each other, while he heals himself the rest of the way.
In WH ch 35 when Rand cleansed Saidin he used this principle. So my thought is why can't he use this principle to seal the Dark One's prison completely again w/o a counter stroke? If the Shadar Logoth evil, Padan Fain, is fighting the Dark One, Occupying his attention or "closing the gap" as Lews Therin put it. Rand, or Logain, could touch Saidin and Saidar in a circle with Callandor directly to Fain instead of the Dark One with the 6 seals. Sealing up both of them at the same time.
Getting Fain to attack the Dark One is a very likely scenario if Rand is killed on the rocks of Shayol Gol by the Dark One or Moridin before Fain can get to Rand. He's very possessive of who get's to kill him, ie: Rochaid in Far Madding. Also Fain HATES the Dark One for what was done to him, reinforcing the motive for attacking and placing himself in the area to close the gap. Every time we see Padan Fain, he has been getting stronger and stronger with the Shadar Logoth evil. What better way to use it than to contain the Dark One long enough for the forces of Light to make his prison complete.

On a side note, if SL evil is the polar opposite to the Dark One like Saidin and Saidar. Male and Female... Does that make the Dark One a girl
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  #2  
Old 03-27-2012, 04:25 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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I don't think Padan Fain is anywhere near close to as powerful as the DO.
So this solution might work for a couple of seconds, maybe a minute or two, but no longer.

Which, all in all, leaves something desired when it is intended as a permanent fix.
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  #3  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:50 AM
Vanadis Vanadis is offline
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Well, I have always had this weird idea that it is Fain that will become the "new" DO in the next turning of the Wheel.

I know, it isn't a very solid theory, but it kind of got stuck in my head
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  #4  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:33 AM
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It's not a particularly new theory. People have long suggested that Fain would be everything from a new Seal to a dagger for the Dark One's heart; ply a role from Gollum to Agent Smith.
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  #5  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:14 PM
NaeffOfDreams NaeffOfDreams is offline
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Fain is to the DO as Jecht is to Sin? I doubt it, based on what we know, but crazier things have happened.

Gollum seems to be the go-to trope, but I read an interview at some point (don't remember if it was RJ or BS) saying that he is not a Gollum-analog. I don't know if it was meant that he won't bite Rand's fingers off, or that he won't be filling the role of inadvertently winning Tarmon Gai'don for us. The only certainty is that I'm interested to see what his "wild-card" status yields.
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2012, 12:55 AM
77jester 77jester is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I don't think Padan Fain is anywhere near close to as powerful as the DO.
So this solution might work for a couple of seconds, maybe a minute or two, but no longer.

Which, all in all, leaves something desired when it is intended as a permanent fix.
The problem with this doubt is that You're discounting what proof we have in the books. The Shadar Logoth evil IS standing toe to toe with the DO's evil and has kept it at bay for quite some time now, seven books. Rand's wound on his side hasn't changed since Flinn sealed it. If the SL evil was as weak as you're implying, his wound would be solely the DO's evil almost immediately after Flinn sealed it off from Rand. Since it's clearly described as fighting each other.
Instead we see concrete proof from RJ that the SL evil is just as powerful. The counter balance, just like Saidin and Saidar.
Even if Rand breaks all of the seals that doesn't assure complete freedom, just more freedom for the DO. Rand's memories as Lews Therin describe it as a gap. Shayol Gol is a thinness in the pattern. They drilled a hole, they didn't open a door.
If you have a plumbing leak in your copper pipes, you don't seal it by dripping hot solder on the hole. It won't seal completely. The water will keep it from bonding to the copper, eventually it will start spraying water through the tiny holes. That's what Lews Therin and the 100 companions did. To seal it correctly you have to shut off the water, then solder to clean, dry copper. Old plumbers used to stuff bread into the pipes to absorb the water and allow them to work with a clean dry pipe. It would eventually dissolve, but not until their work was done. By then their patch was as good as new.
The same principle is being foreshadowed in the books by the quotes I provided above. I'm not suggesting that Fain will be the actual seal,(thus making him a Gollum character)just the temporary plug for Rand or Logain to do their work without getting wet. Lews Therin's Seals lasted for 3000 years and they were placed with the DO's full attention on them.

And this may not be an original theory, but we have new and expanded information in the last two books that directly relate to this theory. It has to be a better discussion than who hates/loves Egwene...

Quote:
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!
Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.
What could be better to use as a temporary plug, to separate them from the DO, than an opposing force?
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:10 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by 77jester View Post
What could be better to use as a temporary plug, to separate them from the DO, than an opposing force?
That might maybe work if Fain would indeed be no more than a temporary plug, which only has to hold for the few moments it takes to properly repair the DO's prison.

Which, of course, depends on that repair job actually being finished in those few moments, and on the DO not being able to work around Fain while this is going on. Neither seems an assumption we can take for granted at the moment.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:16 AM
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Maybe something else to consider: Maybe the "die and be reborn" theories are tied into the "Fain will provide a distraction" theory put forward here?

Say Rand dies while doing...whatever during the Last Battle, then dies. While he is dead (and resurrecting himself, or being brought back, or whatever might happen) Fain either Hulk's-out at the DO for killing Rand, or just goes after him on his own, or gets "thrown" at the DO by somebody else. Fain distracts the DO long enough for Rand to be brought back, and finish what he has to do. Two theories tied together, just like that
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:48 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by 77jester View Post
The problem with this doubt is that You're discounting what proof we have in the books. The Shadar Logoth evil IS standing toe to toe with the DO's evil and has kept it at bay for quite some time now, seven books. Rand's wound on his side hasn't changed since Flinn sealed it. If the SL evil was as weak as you're implying, his wound would be solely the DO's evil almost immediately after Flinn sealed it off from Rand. Since it's clearly described as fighting each other.
Instead we see concrete proof from RJ that the SL evil is just as powerful. The counter balance, just like Saidin and Saidar.
I don't think this has the significance that you are implying. In small amounts, yes, that was the case. The taint (what was likely an imperceptible amount of the Dark One's power - he just kind of did it as a parting blow) was enough to completely obliterate Shadar Logoth and destroy the bedrock in which Mashadar dwelled. Somehow I doubt that Fain somehow obtained many magnitudes more power along the way. I'd put my money on him against a Forsaken or Shaidar Haran, if he had the element of surprise in his favor, but not the Dark One.

I think that this mythology is much closer to Brandon Sanderson's Ruin and Preservation than Tolkien's Eru Iluvatar and Melkor/Morgoth. The most powerful of the races of the world could stand up to Morgoth once he had weakened himself by strengthening Ungoliant, and Sauron, and the Balrogs (even though Fingolfin ultimately died despite it all). Ruin was defeated through a trick, a ruse. Here, the Dark One is the counterpart to the Creator of the Multiverse.

I don't think it's going to come down to Fain directly fighting the Dark One. I think it will be much closer to a Gollum - he'll somehow distract the Dark One at a pivotal moment, allowing Rand to do what he needs to do. Not because Padan Fain can match the Dark One's strength, but because he's such a fundamentally different evil.

You go on to say much the same, but I couldn't agree with your initial characterization of Fain/Dark One as similar to Saidin/Saidar. It's more like matter/antimatter. They might obliterate each other, but there's a hell of a lot more of one than the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
That might maybe work if Fain would indeed be no more than a temporary plug, which only has to hold for the few moments it takes to properly repair the DO's prison.

Which, of course, depends on that repair job actually being finished in those few moments, and on the DO not being able to work around Fain while this is going on. Neither seems an assumption we can take for granted at the moment.
Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltheriond View Post
Maybe something else to consider: Maybe the "die and be reborn" theories are tied into the "Fain will provide a distraction" theory put forward here?

Say Rand dies while doing...whatever during the Last Battle, then dies. While he is dead (and resurrecting himself, or being brought back, or whatever might happen) Fain either Hulk's-out at the DO for killing Rand, or just goes after him on his own, or gets "thrown" at the DO by somebody else. Fain distracts the DO long enough for Rand to be brought back, and finish what he has to do. Two theories tied together, just like that
Well, it's all conceivable, except for Fain "Hulking out at the Dark One for killing Rand."
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.
Suppose that the DO has the ability to use something like balefire. Then suppose that he aims a huge load of that at Rand, with Fain in the way. Fain can try to duck out of the way, and may or may not be successful. But I don't see him as having the kind of power necessary to slow down such a blast noticeably at all.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:06 AM
NaeffOfDreams NaeffOfDreams is offline
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I found it.
Quote:
INTERVIEW: Nov 8th, 2010
TOM Signing Report - Sarayne (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
BRANDON SANDERSON
No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no, he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:32 AM
77jester 77jester is offline
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I don't think this has the significance that you are implying. In small amounts, yes, that was the case. The taint (what was likely an imperceptible amount of the Dark One's power - he just kind of did it as a parting blow) was enough to completely obliterate Shadar Logoth and destroy the bedrock in which Mashadar dwelled. Somehow I doubt that Fain somehow obtained many magnitudes more power along the way. I'd put my money on him against a Forsaken or Shaidar Haran, if he had the element of surprise in his favor, but not the Dark One.
Yes it does have the significance that I am implying. RJ went to great lengths explaining the correlation of those two opposing forces. You have Damer Flinn's explanation, Rand's PoV explanation where he describes it as the taint's opposite twin, and interviews of RJ explaining how the equal opposing nature of SL enabled Rand to siphon the taint off of Saidin.
The SL evil came from Mordeth and Mashadar, not the foundation and walls of the city. The walls and buildings of the city were contaminated in the same way that the walls of a nuclear reactor give off radiation, from absorbing it from the source. The simple fact that it completely eradicated the taint from Saidin implies that it is an equal force. Adding to that proof is the struggle between the opposing forces in Rand's never healing wound. Neither side is gaining dominance.

There's nothing in the books to indicate that the taint on Saidin was an imperceptible amount of the DO's power. The evidence points to the opposite. You have 69 of the strongest male aes sedai, channeling for all their worth since they don't have circles. And they touch Saidin to the DO directly causing all of them to instantly go insane. From the Strike at Shayol Ghul
Quote:
Instead, there was the counterstroke from the Dark One at the moment of sealing, and saidin itself was tainted. Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant.
It was a direct touch not a projected blast.

Quote:
I think that this mythology is much closer to Brandon Sanderson's Ruin and Preservation than Tolkien's Eru Iluvatar and Melkor/Morgoth. The most powerful of the races of the world could stand up to Morgoth once he had weakened himself by strengthening Ungoliant, and Sauron, and the Balrogs (even though Fingolfin ultimately died despite it all). Ruin was defeated through a trick, a ruse. Here, the Dark One is the counterpart to the Creator of the Multiverse.

I don't think it's going to come down to Fain directly fighting the Dark One. I think it will be much closer to a Gollum - he'll somehow distract the Dark One at a pivotal moment, allowing Rand to do what he needs to do. Not because Padan Fain can match the Dark One's strength, but because he's such a fundamentally different evil.

You go on to say much the same, but I couldn't agree with your initial characterization of Fain/Dark One as similar to Saidin/Saidar. It's more like matter/antimatter. They might obliterate each other, but there's a hell of a lot more of one than the other.
Again it's not my characterization of Fain/DO. I have provided several quotes showing that this is Robert Jordans explanation.
Quote:
EMMA
Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.
ROBERT JORDAN
You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.
Quote:
Despite my inclination that you're probably right that Fain won't last too long against the Dark One, it's a big presumption to assume that "not too long" is "only a few moments." We have absolutely no basis to put a time frame on our speculation here.



Well, it's all conceivable, except for Fain "Hulking out at the Dark One for killing Rand."
Fain doesn't need to "Hulk out" his evil IS as great as the Dark Ones.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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The EVIL was as great as the Dark One - that does not mean that the STRENGTH of that evil was as great as the Dark One. The Dark One is the counterpart of the Creator. Shadar Logoth's evil was created by a few men's wickedness.

I understand that the evils are diametrically opposite. I also understand that the evil is as great as that of the Dark One. What I do not agree with is that it therefore follows that the magnitude of that evil; the total strength of the evil in Aridhol is capable of matching the strength of the counterpart of the Creator of the Wheel and the Multiverse. It's absurd.

Again, I reiterate: it's like matter and anti-matter. They'll obliterate each other, but there's simply more matter than anti-matter.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:43 PM
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I don't know about that. Fain seems to be getting exponentially stronger as he draws closer to SG. The Blight isn't even a challenge; it's more like a playground.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:19 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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I don't know about that. Fain seems to be getting exponentially stronger as he draws closer to SG. The Blight isn't even a challenge; it's more like a playground.
And the only thing keeping the Dark One from ripping the Pattern apart and destroying the Wheel of Time is that the hole in his prison is too small.

I repeat - we're not talking about things that are equal in magnitude.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:46 AM
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The EVIL was as great as the Dark One - that does not mean that the STRENGTH of that evil was as great as the Dark One. The Dark One is the counterpart of the Creator. Shadar Logoth's evil was created by a few men's wickedness.
Yes it does. If you have two people armwrestling and neither one is gaining the advantage, they have equal strength. Plain and simple. Rand's never healing wound is this armwrestling match.

Mordeth and Padan Fain may have been simple men in the beginning, but they are no longer those simple men anymore. He's something else that hasn't been completely defined yet.

Quote:
I understand that the evils are diametrically opposite. I also understand that the evil is as great as that of the Dark One. What I do not agree with is that it therefore follows that the magnitude of that evil; the total strength of the evil in Aridhol is capable of matching the strength of the counterpart of the Creator of the Wheel and the Multiverse. It's absurd.

Again, I reiterate: it's like matter and anti-matter. They'll obliterate each other, but there's simply more matter than anti-matter.
Do you even bother reading the quotes provided before you start spouting your opinions without evidence? The strength of the evil is NOT from the city. The evil is from Mordeth and Mashadar. That power was so strong that it tainted everything in the city. Which in turn proved to be EQUAL to the Dark Ones Taint.
If you disagree, fine. Provide some quotes to support your disagreement. My quotes show that this is what RJ was thinking.
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Old 04-07-2012, 04:36 AM
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Yes it does. If you have two people armwrestling and neither one is gaining the advantage, they have equal strength. Plain and simple. Rand's never healing wound is this armwrestling match.
True.
And if Arnold Schwarzenegger and Paris Hilton throw two baseballs with precisely the same force at each other, those may hit and cancel each out. Doesn't prove that Arnold is as strong as Paris is, though, does it?

What is going on in Rand's wound is that there are two bits from two different evils, and those two bits happen to be more or less sort of evenly matched.
And, just to top it off: the wound which Ishamael caused (which is presumably based on the DO's power) has been subjected to a lot more Healing than the Padan Fain inflicted one has. Every time the latter was tackled by an Aes Sedai or Ashaman, the former was taken along too. But the initial wound had already been somewhat (or a lot) weakened by Lanfear, Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and possibly others as well.

So there is no support at all from this side for the idea that the two evils are comparable in strength. Any estimate you would want to base on this (dodgy, considering the first point I raised here) is that the Shadow evil is more powerful than the Shadar Logoth version.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:23 PM
77jester 77jester is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
True.
And if Arnold Schwarzenegger and Paris Hilton throw two baseballs with precisely the same force at each other, those may hit and cancel each out. Doesn't prove that Arnold is as strong as Paris is, though, does it?
There's two basic outcomes to "this" scenario.
1 the balls collide and rebound back to thrower with equal force. Unlikely unless Arnold throws underhand.
2 the balls collide, Arnold's ball is slowed down and Paris' ball blasts back in her face.

RJ's explanation for the counterstroke causing the taint do not imply that the DO held anything back. So you trying to equate Mordeth with Paris Hilton doesn't add up with the results of the cleansing.

Quote:
What is going on in Rand's wound is that there are two bits from two different evils, and those two bits happen to be more or less sort of evenly matched.
RJ says equally matched several times, not "more or less sort of evenly matched"

Quote:
And, just to top it off: the wound which Ishamael caused (which is presumably based on the DO's power) has been subjected to a lot more Healing than the Padan Fain inflicted one has. Every time the latter was tackled by an Aes Sedai or Ashaman, the former was taken along too. But the initial wound had already been somewhat (or a lot) weakened by Lanfear, Verin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and possibly others as well.
This is just faulty logic. If the healing those women were doing actually affected the strength of the wound, they would have made some progress from the multiple attempts. Instead we have from Nynaeve's PoV in tFoH
Quote:
She channeled the complex flows, Air and Water, Spirit, even Fire and Earth in small amount, that made up Healing. He did not roar and flail about. He did not even blink. He shivered. That was all. Then he took her wrists and brought her hands down from his face. She was not reluctant. His new injuries were gone, every bite and scrape and bruise, but not the old wound. Nothing had changed about that. Anything short of death should be capable of being Healed, even that.
This was before the second wound added to it, and quite some time after multiple healings. Nothing had changed.
If RJ wanted to imply that the SL evil only was equal because the the DO evil had been weakened by Healing, THIS was the opportunity for him to make such a statement. By the Ultimate Healer/Delver in all of Randland.
Quote:
So there is no support at all from this side for the idea that the two evils are comparable in strength. Any estimate you would want to base on this (dodgy, considering the first point I raised here) is that the Shadow evil is more powerful than the Shadar Logoth version.
On the contrary there is no support for the Opinions you and Seth keep trying to portray as fact with no quotes as proof.
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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I really disagree. Not because the reasoning isn't solid, but we have a bit more information than Randlanders.

Quote:
Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.
The problem is that we know that the DO has been re-sealed previously. Presumably, Rand needs to figure out how the Dark One has been re-sealed before, and re-create that. What we know, though, is that Fain was not a part of that, before (since he didn't exist).


edit: Also, that last sentence really bugs me. Can't quite figure what that means.

Last edited by Flinn Sedai; 04-07-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:42 PM
77jester 77jester is offline
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Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
I really disagree. Not because the reasoning isn't solid, but we have a bit more information than Randlanders.

Quote:
INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002
Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A
QUESTION
Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

ROBERT JORDAN
He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.
The problem is that we know that the DO has been re-sealed previously. Presumably, Rand needs to figure out how the Dark One has been re-sealed before, and re-create that. What we know, though, is that Fain was not a part of that, before (since he didn't exist).


edit: Also, that last sentence really bugs me. Can't quite figure what that means.
RJ's interview quotes can be quite contradictory also though. How would you reconcile this quote?

Quote:
INTERVIEW: May, 2001
Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
ROBERT JORDAN
"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel.
The Wheel is endless."
SORILEA
This leads me to believe that this will not be the LAST BATTLE ever. It probably just comes about every turning of the Wheel, and since it has been such a long time ago, no one ever remembers it.
ROBERT JORDAN
RJ explained that that is what a lot of the WOT is about, the source of Legends, and how some legends are based in such a small bit of real history, that no one really knows where they came from. If they are real, or just made up.
If there is nothing unique about this age, how does Padan Fain get excluded from this generalization? I think it may have a lot to do with this quote.
Quote:
INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
What is Fain?
ROBERT JORDAN
Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The Black Wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

QUESTION
Is this the "Another Power"?
ROBERT JORDAN
[laugh] I don't know.
and this quote.

Quote:
INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)
WEEK 10 QUESTION
Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?
ROBERT JORDAN
The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.
I found it interesting that the question asked about Fain, Ruby Dagger, and Mordeth together. Yet RJ's response separated the powers individually. Padan Fain is the hound of the shadow. That's it. His ability to track Rand, Perrin and Mat will neither increase nor decrease.
The ruby dagger was tainted by Mordeth, just like the rest of Shadar Logoth. The tainted power it has will neither increase or decrease. One slash and you slowly disintegrate into dust.
He doesn't say anything about Mordeth's power other than that Mordeth and Fain Merge/absorbe into one person. In another interview he calls them an amalgamation.
We know for certain that the new Fain is showing signs that he is getting stronger. In tGH he struggled with the Mydraal for dominance, yet now in ToM he can't touch one without instantly killing them. So I think RJ is being clever in his wording when responding to questions about Fain. Keeping them together as the same person would make this answer a lie, but by referring to them separately like they were before they merged allows him to creatively bend the truth. Padan Fain has no real power, but Mor-Fain can walk unopposed in the Blight.

Quote:
INTERVIEW: Apr 15th, 2011
JordanCon Signing Report - Ted Herman (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
How about Padan Fain and his talents?
ALAN ROMANCZUK
He acquired his talents when he merged with Mordeth, who [paraphrased a bit] got his from research and sucked the souls from his victims.
QUESTION
Was Padan Fain behind the killer fog in the Rahad?
ALAN ROMANCZUK
What do you think? LOL


Quote:
INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
MATT HATCH
Ok. Is Mordethís power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?

BRANDON SANDERSON
No, itís more something along the lines of Perrinís wolf power, something more natural; you couldnít weave Mordeth.

MATT HATCH
Ok, so itís more of a natural...

BRANDON SANDERSON
...itís more of a natural, though it is unnatural. Itís an unnatural natural thing...

MATT HATCH
...because Jordan was really particular about...he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in sense than it is based on physics?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Letís say more instinctual, alright?
Mordeth, and his research, is the source of the power that repels the Dark Ones power. Brandon refers to it as an Ancient power like talking with wolves. This power is what I'm referring to as needed to hold back the Dark One as a plug while it is properly sealed. It has been around for the turnings of the wheel and is not unique to this Age.
You'll notice that most of the interview questions and answers are about either Padan Fain, or Mordeth, yet in ToM in the prologue he's called "the creature that had been Padan Fain". I find it intriguing that this distinction is very carefully kept. He splits hairs like an Aes Sedai.
It could be that Padan Fain's uniqueness is that we finally have a two-souler without the aid of the Dark One. Since Rand and Lews Therin have proved to not be two souls in one body, and Slayer is not really a two souler either with one soul in TaR and the other in RL.

He may have sidestepped the pattern by joining with Mordeth thus enabling him to stop being the Dark Ones hound.

But if you look at the other related quotes it becomes apparent how necessary his role is going to become.

Quote:
INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
MATT HATCH
Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that werenít related to the Shadow"...

BRANDON SANDERSON
He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get...

MATT HATCH
..previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

BRANDON SANDERSON
...Yeah...

MATT HATCH
...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasnít this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldnít have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...
MATT HATCH
...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He did.

MATT HATCH
He found one or multiple?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

MATT HATCH
Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

MATT HATCH
[HahóMaybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]
Brandon basically confirms that Mordeth found something in his study that could defeat the Dark One, but he was already twisted from other things to use it correctly. Instead of defeating the Dark One like he set out to do, he made a different type of evil that was instrumental in defeating the Dark Ones Taint.

Quote:
INTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)
MICHAEL MARTIN
Next two questions were essentially the same, just about different characters: Had he always known the size and importance of the roles of Fain and Cadsuane?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes.
Quote:
INTERVIEW: Oct 21st, 1994
AOL Chat 2 (Verbatim)
QUESTION
What is Padan Fain's overall role in the Wheel Of Time (besides hating Rand with a passion)?
ROBERT JORDAN
Read and find out ... except you should be able to figure out most of it by now. Think a little bitóit's all there, really.
From the information we have in the books and the plethora of explanations in the Interview Database, I have no doubt that Mor-Fain (probably accompanied by Mashadar) will be instrumental in allowing the forces of Light to completely seal the Dark Ones prison completely like it was before the bore.
Incidentally, if Matt Hatch is correct in his assumption that Mordeth acquired his power from the Finns. Mat Cauthon may recognize the Mordeth part of Mor-Fain if the accent sounds familiar. Possibly even have a memory resurface.
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