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  #1  
Old 04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
newyorkersedai newyorkersedai is offline
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Default What could the Lightside use to seal the D.O?

I think I finally have it - at least, it's the last good guess I'll ever have, I'm sure...

I posted once on rafo that, basically, the concentrated "mental effort" of the Light side would be enough to seal the DO. I was challenged on "what" the collected forces of good would be using/expending to do so. I had no solid answer, just more guessing. So I was surprised today when I hit on 3 ideas, the last of which is my favorite (of course).

The main thrust is that we've learned about what the seal can't be. It can't be Saidin, and - by extension - not Saidar, either.

Other real "rules" pop up: There is great danger in directly "touching" the Dark One with something, but an (insane but presumably true) expert on the topic says that Shaitan must be touched with something. The only real example is a form of energy (saidin), but this suggests that other things -eg, solid matter - would have drawbacks as well. The DO and Creator are opposites. Using the TP destroys the pattern, as does balefire. The "breach" between the DO and the Pattern is everywhere at once, but feels strongest at SG and special things can be done there.

I have my own idea to add to this:
The DO's defeat may have some basic scientific principle at work - something like "positive and negative attract," or similar natural "universal" principles. Padan Fain being an exact analogue to Gollum is impossible. The plan that the Light will use will have a chance at sealing away the DO for Ages while not causing another Saidin Taint moment.

<i>Take the title and symbolism of the series too seriously</I>

It was a half-joking idea at first, but why not "touch" the DO with the Sun itself, and either the Pattern heals itself or another group does? This would make a 2nd climax of the fight, about the subsequent "restoration" of light to Randland, which could be done by the Lightside collectively trying to tap into TAR and "return things to order" in some way, by psychically grabbing an object in space and igniting it, or by psychically restoring the sun to its position afterwards.

The thematic appropriateness is already at diabetic levels with that move - darkness being cast out by light. At various times in the series, tho, these sorts of ideas have been supported, at least by presumably accurate inference (Rand's scholar's murder, the Cleansing, Rand's joining with Moridin).

A lot of the series has been about power and its use. How more appropriate that men and women touch the same Power, as Lanfear née mierin intended? What she tried to accomplish for gain's sake before will be accomplished out of communal desperation.

The worst part was realizing that as corny as it sounds, it could well be on point.

<i>Use a new "magnet"</I>

After a catch-up with Moiraine and Mat, why not decide to draw the DO away from SG (and possibly, the Pattern) by connecting the Tear with the A/Eelfinn dimension? If, as LTT thinks, the DO must be touched with something, we see that he might be pushed or pulled toward the 'Finn as the Taint itself was pulled toward SL.

This might only be a part of the overall TG plan, but if the 'Finn can read the Pattern, then perhaps they might be a bit outside it in some way. Connecting their world with the DO's presence might give them the leeway they need to set things right. It would also be a great "f u gram" from Matt and Moiraine.

<i>Use everything that's anti-OP to seal the DO</I>

In science, like things repel whereas opposites attract. Although some things only repel the OP, like Matt's medallion, certain things repel both. I'm thinking specifically of the Stedding, but perhaps The Guardian terangreal counts as well.

If the DO must be touched with something, then why not somehow "draw" the Stedding toward SG and "push" them toward the spot where the DO is strongest?

Although the Shadow will enter a Stedding, it,s a natural repulsor for them. It shuts down the OP completely, and I would bet my eye-teeth that it does the same to the TP. Stedding must give off some "force"that repels both the Pattern and the Creator.

This may even mean that Stedding aren't part of the Pattern at all, that perhaps they come to Randland when the Ogier use their bok or something. But even if they are part of the Pattern, their effect on the OP and the Dark's aversion to them must mean that it counter-acts both, and it has an effect like electricity/magnetism.

I think that if there's anything that can be "touched" to the DO without corrupting Randland too, then the Steddings themselves are the likeliest answer.

Since the Pattern seems to be a living thing, it makes sense that it might "heal" itself where the Void has touched it. Perhaps this means that the Wheel will magically "weave" over the DO's former wound, or perhaps it means that something will "grow" in its place.
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:45 PM
neurotopia neurotopia is offline
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I think there's more options for the light than given credit, but they haven't been explored. Maybe on purpose and maybe they won't. A talisman of growing for the Ways, and Avhienda/Elayne ran across a ter'angrael that fills voids or holes or some such in one of Sanderson's books IIRC. Lots of little things like that that present possible avenues, but may not end up playing a role?
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:25 PM
newyorkersedai newyorkersedai is offline
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Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, I think there are tons of options, but I'm looking for a good way to try to answer the fundamental issue presented - how do you seal the Bore when the only attempt we know of had horrible repercussions? How do you avoid the same situation? How do you do something that seems to be impossible?

The entire nature of the DO, Creator, Wheel, and the conflict played among them, is a riddle wrapped in a mystery housed within a conundrum...

Probably quite true that there are more options than we know. Which do you favor?
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:55 PM
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Personally? I'm leaning toward the idea that "I have won again, Lews Therin" is very literal. The DO wins all the time. When that happens, a particular world is abandoned by the Wheel, perhaps becoming the new prison for the DO and exists as the mirror worlds like the ones Rand has traveled through. Obviously this is a good arrangement for the forces of light, as the DO can win and the Pattern continues. The DO is always one step behind.

The DO, then, either has to prevent the champion of the light & co from establishing a world via TAR, or he has to turn the Fisher and convince him to abandon another turning of the Wheel.

Quite honestly, I'm starting to view "sealing the bore" as a huge red herring. If the bore is sealed, the 4th age looks a hell of a lot like the 2nd age per Avhienda's visions. Which effectively gives the DO a shortcut and knocks 7 ages down to 2. A wheel with a chain through the spokes



cannot turn. It is only a matter of time until the DO finds the right combination of factors if that is the case. In this turning, even if the DO loses, Ishy did a great job of crippling shackling channelers by manipulating the Seanchan. What will happen when the prison is somehow reopened in the 4th, er, 2nd age, and nobody is around to use the One Power that drives the Wheel?

As for what sealing method I see happening, totally up in the air. Leaning towards Perrin using his mega-hammer on Shaidar Haran once the DO pours his essence into his avatar, and the Pattern actually requiring a DO to imprison, leading to Fain taking over that role (albeit unwillingly). Rand can likely safely seal the bore with the OP if that happens.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by neurotopia View Post
Quite honestly, I'm starting to view "sealing the bore" as a huge red herring. If the bore is sealed, the 4th age looks a hell of a lot like the 2nd age per Avhienda's visions. Which effectively gives the DO a shortcut and knocks 7 ages down to 2.
How so?

In addition RJ has touched on the first part of your post...

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Interview: Nov 1st, 1998
SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)
Rothaar
When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?
Robert Jordan
There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:57 AM
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The plastic electronics packaging that is almost impossible to remove. I can guarantee the Dark One doesn't have a pair of scissors.

Either that or the whole thing is a red herring and the Last Battle will be a fight to the death between a seal and a boar. I'm guessing the seal will win. It can taunt the boar with its tricks until the boar becomes so mad that it charges, falls into the ocean, and drowns.

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Old 04-10-2012, 09:37 AM
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Think of the seals on the Bore as a tied off shield similar to the one that held Rand on the way to Tar Valon, with holes that the Dark One was able to eventually break through due to the taint-weakened saidin that was holding the seals in place. What is needed is a way to maintain the shield somehow that is self-sustaining, and maybe a way to combine saidin and saidar so that over-ambitious scientists don't go poking around in alternate universes looking for better power sources

As for the Pattern, it is more of a self-correcting machine than a living entity (like a pendulum).
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:12 PM
newyorkersedai newyorkersedai is offline
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Actually, I posted a theory on RaFO that used the same premise: jumping between worlds in the whole Wheel. It never really got off the ground, but I have to consider how Rand can achieve the "safe reset" on Shaitan. It can't be as simple as ctrl + alt + del
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:37 PM
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The DO will just alt+F4 his browser.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
Think of the seals on the Bore as a tied off shield similar to the one that held Rand on the way to Tar Valon, with holes that the Dark One was able to eventually break through due to the taint-weakened saidin that was holding the seals in place. What is needed is a way to maintain the shield somehow that is self-sustaining, and maybe a way to combine saidin and saidar so that over-ambitious scientists don't go poking around in alternate universes looking for better power sources

As for the Pattern, it is more of a self-correcting machine than a living entity (like a pendulum).
In your analogy, the seals are the shield, and the real world is the One Power, with the DO trying his best to channel it by breaking through the shield. To take that on a stage, the way to prevent someone from using the One Power permanently (as opposed to temporarily) is to sever them from the True Source; thus, the way to stop the DO from touching the pattern is to sever him from the real world.

Unfortunately, this doesn't really answer anything, but try thinking of it from another angle: the DO is the OP, and Randland is the channeler. Generally, we tend to think of the bore as an absence or a wound that needs to be healed, since there's substantial indicators sending us in that direction, but what if it's not? What if it's actually a created link rather than a removed tunnel? There is some evidence for thinking of it this way, since the Bore was something created with the One Power, a way of touching the "alternate energy source" that turned out to be the DO; also, the Bore has a physical presence of sorts, but is said to exist everywhere all at once. If an absence or injury existed everywhere, it stands to reason that nothing would exist and the DO would already be free. However, something positive that exists could (theoretically) be present everywhere but focused in one place without doing so much damage.

I think one problem with the many Fain theories that suggest using him in a similar manner to the cleansing of the taint is highlighted here; the cleansing was itself destructive, doing away with the infection of the taint. No matter how desirable the end result, destruction is destruction. Even if the bore is a negative, providing additional destruction to it is only going to make the problem worse. In addition, it is Shai'tan, not the bore itself, that is "vulnerable" to the evil of SL, and it's the bore we're supposed to be doing away with. If the bore is a positive, then the substance from which it is made is likely more akin to the OP than to the DO, taint, or True Power, although the DO's touch upon it may well have tainted it. But simply because is a positive effect need not necessarily indicate that it is a physical presence; the analogy of a channeller's link to the True Source is a good one here, since it also exists everywhere at the same time whilst being physically located at the present location of the channeller.

This leads us back to the idea of severing. Sever the Dark One's link to the land, and the effects of his "channelling" or being channelled should, like the madness of a male in the Taint Era, be arrested but not cured. There are two people who appear to be key in this: Nynaeve al'Meara and Damer Flinn, since they know more about severing and the link to the One Power than anyone else alive. This seems to tie in with some of the hints around callandor; whilst a linked circle with two women may be the only truly safe way of wielding the Sword That Ain't, a linked circle of two men and one woman is possible. The other man is, of course, Rand al'Thor. And since in this analogy the DO's touch on the land is much like taint-induced madness, we are lucky to have the one woman alive who has shown skill in healing madness.

Sealing the bore isn't a matter of filling a hole; it's a matter of severing the Dark One.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:33 PM
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Rand cut Asmodean off from the DO.

Can he cut the world off from the DO with Callandor while linked with two female channelers?

The two women: Cyndane and Moiraine (or Nynaeve)

Cyndane because she started it (I know there's no beginning or ending to the WoT) and it would be thematicly suitable for her to help finish it.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:20 AM
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Jana, obviously the N on your helmet stands for Nintendo. Although I guess an ending out of Zelda might make as much sense as anything else.

Neuro, really? You don't think he uses ctrl + w? Assuming he's got an unlicensed copy of WinME, surely shaitan appreciates its ability to close windows as well as just one tab in a window.

Tomp, the problem is that Rand could see a black "band" or whatever connected to Asmo. Where is the "thing" that connects the DO to the World? Looks like it's the Seal itself.

ZombieSammael your points seem very right. It's why I'm trying new theories to figure out what might be the secret here. So what do you (and anyone else, match) think of using power-repelling things to seal the bore? If reality is made of the pattern and the power drives the pattern, is it possible that Steddings are basically, the right anti-particle for the job? Even my foolish "destroy the sun to save the world" theory relies on something that is repulsive to the dark side (at least a bit)...

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Old 04-16-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkersedai View Post
<i>Use everything that's anti-OP to seal the DO</I>

In science, like things repel whereas opposites attract. Although some things only repel the OP, like Matt's medallion, certain things repel both. I'm thinking specifically of the Stedding, but perhaps The Guardian terangreal counts as well.

If the DO must be touched with something, then why not somehow "draw" the Stedding toward SG and "push" them toward the spot where the DO is strongest?

Although the Shadow will enter a Stedding, it,s a natural repulsor for them. It shuts down the OP completely, and I would bet my eye-teeth that it does the same to the TP. Stedding must give off some "force"that repels both the Pattern and the Creator.
Just to address this part, we know that the Guardians don't cover the True Power. Rand says it pretty explicitly in ToM. While we don't *know* that the same is true of Steddings, we do know that they work in a similar manner. Thus, to suggest that the TP is blocked in a Stedding is pure conjecture, and completely contrary to the information we have available.

edit: Does this mean I get your eye-teeth?

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Old 04-16-2012, 06:46 PM
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The True Power cannot be used in a stedding.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=226#5
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:49 PM
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The True Power cannot be used in a stedding.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=226#5
Oh, good call. Must have missed that one.

Big difference between the Stedding and the Guardians.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:51 PM
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Yeah the Guardian is man made, the steddings are...creator made I think. RJ said they were natural...in a way.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:03 PM
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If I recall (and I may look up the exact quote), but the Stedding aren't entirely there, which is why they don't show up in TAR.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:10 AM
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If I recall (and I may look up the exact quote), but the Stedding aren't entirely there, which is why they don't show up in TAR.
It is thought that the Stedding are either part of the Ogier universe, or part of the WOT universe altered to match the Ogier universe. Either way, the effect is the same.
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