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  #1  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:20 AM
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How is Rand supposed to serve Lanfear, before or after death? Any ideas?

I'm still not entirely convinced this passage is about Rand and Lanfear anyway, partly because he's hardly a 'new lover'. He's an old one. Though I suppose since he's in a new body he might be considered 'new'...
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:59 AM
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Isn't that passage about the two options Moiraine saw at Rhuidean? One in which Rand became LTT and in the other he died?

Hereby the quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 53 - Fading Words
The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:08 PM
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Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:22 PM
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Not that we haven't discussed this at incendiary length before, but I firmly believe the passage is about Lanfear. The term "lover" is most often used as a euphemism for sexual partner, in the context of a relationship with a primarily physical element. In this context, LTT/The Dragon in a new body qualifies quite nicely as a new lover. Even setting that aside, at the time of the prophecy - and to an extent bear in mind it's Trolloc trash talk as much as prophecy - Rand didn't even have LTT in his head yet. As far as he was concerned, he was an entirely different person. Speculation based on Moiraine's note leads us to think that Lanfear would have found some way to bring LTT out, but she hadn't yet observed that Rand was having past life memories, and may not have done so, in that alternate future, until after she'd met Rand. So I think "new" is fair enough in this context.

Without wanting to dredge up the old discussion, I remain of the opinion that Rand is going to rush off half-cocked to rescue Cyndane in AMOL. I think this is the first manner in which he will serve her, and that it will lead directly (or less likely indirectly) to his death, thus fulfilling the first part of the prophecy. "Serve her still" might just be there to indicate he's coming back, especially if he's forced to continue protecting her after his return in order to prevent her from being executed for being one of the Forsaken, or suchlike. Some bargain might have to be struck with her at some point, and I haven't totally abandoned the idea of her being involved in his resurrection, but I don't want to get into the same flamewar over it all over again.

Thus, my best guess is that he will save her from Moridin, die (likely in the process), and then protect her from execution.

As an addendum, regarding the middle part, perhaps Rand might be captured during his rescue attempt, and either 13x13'd or subjected to some other process involving the link with Moridin, thus necessitating his death during one of the Battle of Caemlyn variations.
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.
That could also have been misdirection based upon the way we all refer to it as prophecy, though. RJ didn't outright lie, but I don't think he was above sending us haring off in the wrong direction from time to time, either inside or outside of the novels.
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  #6  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:53 PM
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The prophecy may be indeed be legitimate, does that automatically imply that it is complete and not structured in such a way as to manipulate?

Consider the source - Ishamael, or whomever he was specifically at the time. He's selective about where he drops DPs, and does it with the intent of getting people to do certain things. That verse certainly constitutes a warning - Lanfear is after Rand, intends to "kill" him and return LTT to the world as her willing slave. That's certainly not in keeping with Ishy's plans, and he knows better than anyone that prophecy can be manipulated.

It could be considered that the prophecy has already been fulfilled.
~She sought her lover (failed, but sought him).
~"Rand" is no longer Rand, but an amalgamation of Rand and LTT, and is just as "dead" as if he'd been replaced by LTT.
~She's manipulating him to save her, and if he does he's serving her. Not as a slave, but the verse doesn't say that.

It's all about interpretation. Graendal thought she had an interpretation down pat. She was wrong.
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
to an extent bear in mind it's Trolloc trash talk as much as prophecy
No, it isn't. For one thing, it was written by a Myrddraal, not a Trolloc. For another, RJ said it was a prophecy, which he wouldn't have done if it wasn't actually a prophecy. And finally, we have no reason to believe it isn't actually a prophecy, and several indicators that it is.

But let's not turn this into an argument about that. I want to know how the line in the title is supposed to be fulfilled.
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  #8  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, it isn't. For one thing, it was written by a Myrddraal, not a Trolloc. For another, RJ said it was a prophecy, which he wouldn't have done if it wasn't actually a prophecy. And finally, we have no reason to believe it isn't actually a prophecy, and several indicators that it is.

But let's not turn this into an argument about that. I want to know how the line in the title is supposed to be fulfilled.
What was the quote where he called it a prophecy? All I could find was your note where you said he called it a prophecy in passing. I think whether it's propaganda or prophecy, or prophecy used as propaganda, is a significant factor. Anyway, you have my thoughts on how it will be fulfilled.
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:46 PM
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For myself, I think the Daughter of the Night here is Egwene, and the new lover is Gawyn. Problem solved.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:31 PM
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Default Zombie Sammuel has a nice idea

With this involving lanfear's rescue. Is it possible that she will offer the Light some way to help reseal the Bore? It would likely be a method intended to fail...
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:36 PM
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If you look at below quote than it's hard to qualify it as something that has to happen. Part of the things have already happened and in the text is refered to two different paths. (like in some dreams).
As we all know, in the end there were more paths. So the prophecy has proven it's not infallable.
The first part about who shall serve her and die, yet serve still, probably refers to one of the two paths.


Quote:
"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great
Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great
Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Now the Great Lord comes."
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:40 AM
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Well, it's hard for me to connect the Lanfear bit to his two paths. It's stated as something that will happen, not as a choice. Not that I would be incredibly surprised if it didn't happen; I'm just mainly looking for ideas about how it will happen if it does.
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  #13  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
For myself, I think the Daughter of the Night here is Egwene, and the new lover is Gawyn. Problem solved.
As I've pointed out, that doesn't fit. "Daughter of the Night" is the literal translation of "Lanfear", and this is a Dark Prophecy.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Well, it's hard for me to connect the Lanfear bit to his two paths. It's stated as something that will happen, not as a choice. Not that I would be incredibly surprised if it didn't happen; I'm just mainly looking for ideas about how it will happen if it does.
Well it could mean that the DO would grap Rands soul as Ishamael keeps saying in TGH. That way he would die yet serve still.

Or it would mean that he would become LTT and in that sense die, yet serve still.

I don't really see another option.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:11 PM
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How is Rand supposed to serve Lanfear, before or after death? Any ideas?
It seems we all asume that Lanfear (Cyndane) will serve the DO.

I think there may be a chance that she will help to seal the Bore. It would make thematic sense, since she drilled the bore in AoL (a redemption story arc).

We could speculate that Rand/LTT will serve her in the project of sealing the bore and by doing so die in the process.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:06 PM
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The thing about a redemption arc is that you need to see progress along it. With Lanfear you see her as power-hungry, self-centered and obsessive over Rand/LTT, which matches up to her behavior in the Age of Legends. She's that way all the way up through going through the doorway, and when she shows up again she's mindtrapped and hates it. She does say "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." in Rand's dream but the rest of it is how much the mindtrap sucks and how she wishes she were dead. Not saying it won't happen, just that having it essentially happen only in the last book makes it weak. I could maybe see her saying "wow, I shouldn't have gone to the shadow, look what they did to me" but I can't see her moving too far from power-hungry, self-centered and obsessive so not exactly embracing the light.

I'm in the camp with Zombie Sammael: he's going to save her from Moridin and die in the process. "yet serves her still" could mean coming back to life and helping again, or it could just be emphasis that even though he dies, he succeeds in serving her. "Her new lover she seeks" has to be Rand. Just because she seeks for him to be her lover doesn't mean that they had to actually be lovers; written that way they almost couldn't be lovers yet. The fact that LTT would be her old lover may not play here since when this is written Rand hasn't started dealing with the LTT memories/voice beyond people calling him Lews Therin, right? Besides, at this point in the series, who else is it going to be, Asmodean?
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:40 AM
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We discussed Egwene and Tuon.
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:18 AM
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Im surprised no-one else has picked up on the play on words:

In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means "servants of all", and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends lived up to this definition.

Rand Sedai is certainly the only living Age of Legends Aes Sedai who was not turned to the shadow
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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Im surprised no-one else has picked up on the play on words:

In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means "servants of all", and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends lived up to this definition.

Rand Sedai is certainly the only living Age of Legends Aes Sedai who was not turned to the shadow
Okay, I think you're getting at the "serve her and die" part, correct? The trouble is, Rand Sedai is no more a servant of all than the AOL-AS who fought against the Shadow were, in the sense that they can't both serve the people of the Light and fight against the Shadow; fighting against someone could only be a service in a very specific context. So unless Lanfear/Cyndane is going to turn back to the Light (possible) then Rand Sedai isn't really serving her by just being an Aes Sedai. I think at some point it's possible the "All" in Aes Sedai came to mean "All" in the sense of "Everything that exists" rather than "Everyone", since that became the thing they were fighting to defend. As of right now Lanfear/Cyndane is still fighting against that. But we'll see.
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:57 PM
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It seems we all asume that Lanfear (Cyndane) will serve the DO.
Easy now.

Let sleeping cats lie.
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