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  #1  
Old 04-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Default New Horn Heroes

Who do you think stands a good chance at becoming a hero of the horn in the future? There are a lot of good fighters and characters whom I think stand a good chance of being added to the 'Cool Kid Club'. lol.

The 1st that comes to mind is Hurin. I know he's a minor character after TGH, but I think he is one of the most noble, loyal people in the series.

Then there is Mat, of course. He distined for it, so no need to comment much on that.

I also think Lan stands a very high chance as well. Even after all that he's lost, his family, Moiraine(As far as he knows), his entire kingdom pretty much, he still stands steadfast against the shadow and leading an army to face the shadow.

Jain Farstrider has also done a lot, especially sacrificing himself so Mat and the other could escape the Finns.

I don't know if wolf-brothers can become heroes, though they are masters of the Dream. I would say Elyas. But not Perrin because he's not really a fighter at heart and don't think he would like being bound to the horn as a warrior.

So what do yall think?
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2012, 06:05 PM
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I think everyone you named, including Perrin but excluding Hurin, is already tied to the Horn. They didn't answer the Horn's Call at Falme because they were currently spun out for a role at T'G or afterwards, but are tied to the Horn nonetheless.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:17 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Nah because they would have been recognized, like how they recognized Rand as Lews Therin. When they are in that 'Dream State', I guess I'll call it for heroes not yet spun out, they seem to be able to see a person's soul rather than their physical appearance.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Nah because they would have been recognized, like how they recognized Rand as Lews Therin.
They may have been recognised but not acknowledged as Heroes. Or, alternatively, Dream Heroes can't generally recognise living ones as such, but the Dragon is an exception, possibly only in Falme-like circumstances.

Edited to add:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH, Chapter 47, The Grave is no Bar to My Call
Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission ... Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"
This actually suggests, without spelling it out, that Hawkwing did recognise Mat and Perrin as Heroes. He does explicitly say of Hurin only that it would be possible for him to become one, after all, which either means that Mat and Perrin could never manage that, or that they already are part of that select Company.

Last edited by GonzoTheGreat; 04-15-2012 at 04:12 AM.
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  #5  
Old 04-15-2012, 06:54 AM
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For some reason, not particularly supported by anything, I always thought Hopper would be called by the horn. Don't know if it's possible since he died a true death in TAR. But I always found his story line in TAR to be much like Birgitta's and Gaidal's.Don't even know if wolves can be bound to the horn. Probably just wishful thinking on my part but wouldn't that be great? Like maybe Perrin is struggling in TLB, Mat blows the horn and there's Hopper, and Perrin gets his second wind. LOL like I said wishful.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:55 AM
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I have no indication that they recognized Perrin or Mat. Mat blew the horn so they are bound to him, of course they'll know he's the horn sounder. And Perrin was right there holding the banner, so duh, he must be the bannerman. And when Artur was talking to Hurin, maybe he was also talking to everyone else since they were all in listening distance.

As for Hopper, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Though that does lead to a question. If you die in TAR, is that akin to being balefired, as in you are cut out of the pattern, but not totally gone? Remember even those who are balefire aren't completely dead and out of the pattern forever, they can still be woven back in the future, just means the DO can't snatch em and such.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:18 PM
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You're right Hopper dying in TAR is not perma death. Though sometimes I think of it that way. But if you die in TAR you die IRL too. But since Hopper was already dead he was more like Bir/Gaidal.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:50 PM
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You're right Hopper dying in TAR is not perma death. Though sometimes I think of it that way. But if you die in TAR you die IRL too. But since Hopper was already dead he was more like Bir/Gaidal.
Uh, no....


Quote:
3 TITLE: Shadow Rising
* CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
* Perrin paused. There was a sense of finality to the emotions his mind attached the word "kill" to. "Hopper, what happens to a wolf who dies in the dream?" The wolf was silent for a time. If we die here, we die forever, Young Bull. I do not know if the same is true for you, but I believe it is.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:10 PM
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Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:53 PM
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Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.
Did you read Towers of Midnight? 4+ chapters are devoted to Hopper+Perrin and the final death impact.

Can you provide the bale fire quote you are referencing please? I have no idea what you are referring to or how it could support your comments.
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  #11  
Old 04-15-2012, 06:00 PM
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http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php
Entry 2.
Quote:
Robert Jordan
If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.
Oops, those links are funny. http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-t...iew-search.php Click on balefire and scroll down a tad.

There is also mention that if the balefire is weak enough, the DO can still grab a soul and reincarnate it.

Last edited by Edynol; 04-15-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:06 PM
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I don't see how Farstrider can be tied to the Horn. Wouldn't it make sense that in some way the Heroes were akin to ta'veren in their purpose? Darkfriends can't be ta'veren, so it would seem to me (without any corroborating evidence or support, I admit) unlikely that a darkfriend would be selected as a Hero of the Horn.

Maybe I'm wrong. Gonzo is a Hero, and he's clearly a Darkfriend.

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  #13  
Old 04-15-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php
Entry 2.


Oops, those links are funny. http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-t...iew-search.php Click on balefire and scroll down a tad.

There is also mention that if the balefire is weak enough, the DO can still grab a soul and reincarnate it.
Not sure how that supports your wolf death comments?
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:05 PM
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I don't see how Farstrider can be tied to the Horn. Wouldn't it make sense that in some way the Heroes were akin to ta'veren in their purpose? Darkfriends can't be ta'veren, so it would seem to me (without any corroborating evidence or support, I admit) unlikely that a darkfriend would be selected as a Hero of the Horn.
How is this a problem? Farstrider was not a Darkfriend. Are you confusing him with the different Malkieri that was a Darkfriend and betrayed the nation? The one Farstrider captured and became famous for doing so? Cowin something or other, I think.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:14 PM
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Not sure how that supports your wolf death comments?
Wasn't meant to, someone asked where it was said that balefire didn't remove someone permanently from the pattern. Also, I am not saying my thought is correct or not, just looking for solid evidence against it. Just because someone in the book says its that way, it doesn't always make it true, and I was using balefire as an example of this.

And to fdf, yes, darkfriends can be ta'veren if it fulfills the patterns plans. It is highly unlikely, but still possible. Also, it was never confirmed that he was a darkfriend. Maybe he did some things he wasn't proud of, something bad, maybe, but that doesn't make him a darkfriend. Not saying he wasn't, just saying there's no proof that he was. He was a borderlander, after all. Maybe he ran from a fight and abandoned his men or something, which a borderlander would concider one the lowest, dirtiest things one can do short of betrayal.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:10 PM
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I have no idea what I was talking about in my last post. That'll teach me to post when my brain is dead from writing my thesis all weekend. Feel free to ignore.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:31 PM
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I usually hate these threads, mainly because too many people forget that the Hero-candidate may already be a Hero, simply one spun out.

The real question is much harder: who has made a 'new' contribution? Hurin is possible, so is Verin, IMO. But I would be very surprised if Mat or Moiraine was merely a 'candidate'.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
I have no indication that they recognized Perrin or Mat. Mat blew the horn so they are bound to him, of course they'll know he's the horn sounder. And Perrin was right there holding the banner, so duh, he must be the bannerman. And when Artur was talking to Hurin, maybe he was also talking to everyone else since they were all in listening distance.

As for Hopper, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Though that does lead to a question. If you die in TAR, is that akin to being balefired, as in you are cut out of the pattern, but not totally gone? Remember even those who are balefire aren't completely dead and out of the pattern forever, they can still be woven back in the future, just means the DO can't snatch em and such.
Yeah - they ignored the two ta'veren who were leading the group, with Rand, and addressed the guy who was following them?

I'm DEFINITELY with the other guy on this. Perrin and Mat fit hero archetypes that are present in mythology from all over. Just as Birgitte is always the archer, Mat and Perrin were written as god-heroes every bit as much as the Dragon himself. That seems, to me, to have been quite clearly intentional.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:27 PM
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Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise. Yes, it takes them out of the pattern, but eventually they will be woven back in. So I think its safe to assume that Hopper could have been mistaken as well.
There is a difference between Moiraine's(?) assertion that death by Balefire is permanent and complete and the assertions of Birgitte and Hopper that death in T'A'R, for those who live in T'A'R, is permanent and final.

In Moiriane's case, she is sating an assumption from the viewpoint of a mortal who has no direct experience of the afterlife/T'A'R.

In Hopper's case, (and Birgitte's case, iirc,) the assertion is made by one who lives in T'A'R with all the memories of all lives lived, incarnate and in T'A'R. Wolves live partially in T'A'R snd share a kind of species memory that goes back Turnings, demonstrably as far as the last Wolf-brothers. They would remember a wolf being reborn after dying in T'A'R.

It may be that a wolf's soul is recycled, but the personality and memories are definitely lost forever.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:03 AM
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Wasn't meant to, someone asked where it was said that balefire didn't remove someone permanently from the pattern. Also, I am not saying my thought is correct or not, just looking for solid evidence against it. Just because someone in the book says its that way, it doesn't always make it true, and I was using balefire as an example of this.
I think that SBC was asking where in the books anyone said that balefire removed you permanently from the Pattern.

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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Well some said the same thing about balefire in the book, but then RJ said otherwise.
The closest I could come is a remark by the DO, in LOC, but I would be very hesitant to believe his propaganda.
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