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  #1  
Old 04-15-2012, 07:30 AM
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Default Who is the most incompetent hero

As a complement to the competent villain thread.

Who is the most incompetent hero/good guy (or good gal)?

And why do you think so?

Plz no hate posts here. There are a lot of other threads for that.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2012, 07:55 AM
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I think that Elaida would win this competition.
Perrin tried for a while (though he never reached Elaida's level), but he seems to have given up on incompetence again. The quitter.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:46 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Elaida I don't consider a hero. She is more a villain. If all her intentions were pure, I would say differently, but she actively pursued jealousy and lust for power. Sure she thought her reasons were just and that she was entitled, but her motives were far from pure.

Having said that, I think Gawyn is the most incompetent hero. I mean, the only think I can remember him doing right was protecting Eggy when she was in TAR with Mesa. Otherwise he just fumbled everything up.
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  #4  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Elaida I don't consider a hero. She is more a villain. If all her intentions were pure, I would say differently, but she actively pursued jealousy and lust for power. Sure she thought her reasons were just and that she was entitled, but her motives were far from pure.

Having said that, I think Gawyn is the most incompetent hero. I mean, the only think I can remember him doing right was protecting Eggy when she was in TAR with Mesa. Otherwise he just fumbled everything up.
Gawyn did get Min, Siuan, and Leane out of Tar Valon after the coup. Of course, one might have wished that he would have had the foresight to realize that if Min is supporting Siuan that Egwene and Elayne obviously were too, thus making his decision to side with Elaida incredibly stupid. Even with his role in helping Min, which is at least somewhat exculpatory, he would be a good choice for most incompetent, but only if one considers him a hero, which is highly debatable. Frankly I think this distinction still needs to go to Perrin. He is clearly a hero, and his intentions are always noble, but he's an idiot.
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  #5  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:39 AM
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No way. Perrin has done a lot.
He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.

Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.

Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.

Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.

Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.

Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.

And those are just off the top of my head. He is way way way way far from incompetent.
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
No way. Perrin has done a lot.
He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.

Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.

Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.

Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.

Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.

Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.

And those are just off the top of my head. He is way way way way far from incompetent.
The issue isn't whether he has done a lot, you could make a similar list for Gawyn:

He slew two blademasters during the coup.

He got Min out of the Tower after the coup.

He led the Younglings, turning them into a formidable fighting force.

He saved the stragglers from the Tower and brought them to safety after their disaster at the Wells.

He saves Egwene from the Bloodknive assassins.


These are fine accomplishments, some of which even make a case for his competency, yet they cannot wash away some truly stupid decisions, most notably his siding with Elaida and his irrational hatred/jealousy of the Dragon.

As for Perrin, let's examine your points.

Quote:
He lead the TR to victory and chased off the Children and raised his own army pretty much from scratch.
He definitely gets credit for this, but he was foolish enough to offer to turn himself over to the Children in exchange for help. They didn't do anything, but what if Bornhold had actually helped?

Quote:
Lead the attack that all but destroyed the Shaido.
Granted.

Quote:
Defeated Slayer and got rid of the Dreamspike and showed Eggy what a noob she was in TAR in the process.
Granted.

Quote:
Saved the Children from getting slaughtered and brought them to their side in the process.
Saving Galad perhaps barely tips this from being incredibly foolish, to perhaps merely foolish, but necessary.

Quote:
Got the best of the deal with Elaine in becoming Lord of TR.
Elayne deftly outmaneuvered him here, albeit in part because Perrin clearly was quite happy to give up his claim of making the Two Rivers independent. Nonetheless, this one demonstrates Elayne's competency more than Perrin's.

Quote:
Helped craft the 1st power-wrought weapon made in ages.
This is more Neald than Perrin.


You left off the biggest mistake - he didn't put down Masema even after both his own nose and the constant warnings of the Wise Ones told him the man was rabid and a danger to the Dragon. Faile shouldn't have had to take care of this, but if she hadn't the Prophet would still be alive.

Last edited by Kimon; 04-15-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Gawyn didn't help anyone escape the tower, they did that on their own. All he did was choose not to turn them in when he caught them on their way out of TV. Nothing even remotely heroic about that.

And so he bested two blademasters, that just shows he's a good swordsman, not a hero. And I still recall him and his brother both getting bested at the same time by a weakened farmboy with hardly any training or fighting experience. If anything, that just shows it doesn't take much to be a blademaster.
Quote:
Elayne deftly outmaneuvered him here, albeit in part because Perrin clearly was quite happy to give up his claim of making the Two Rivers independent. Nonetheless, this one demonstrates Elayne's competency more than Perrin's.
And I don't see how Elaine outmaneuvered him. He didn't want much to begin with, he just started high to see what she was about and ended up getting way more than what he really wanted. I mean, Elaine really didn't much of anything. Much of what she got was pretty much what she already had, nothing really changed for her other than getting a longer trade route which benefits TR just as much and a connection to Saldea while TR also go the addition of receiving the queen's aid if they need it. And they don't even have to pay any taxes! All the while Perring becomes Lord of TR, get's much higher status than he really even wants, his home stay his home, plus much more. He won't just be leading over EF, but Watch Hill and the other towns as well.
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Saving Galad perhaps barely tips this from being incredibly foolish, to perhaps merely foolish, but necessary.
That wasn't foolish, that was smart. He knew that if he went against Galad or allowed him to get killed when he could prevent it that it would push Morgase away, who also helped him with Elaine. And he was right about needing them in the last battle and arranged to have his sentence postponed until after TG, if they survived. And not only that, he befriended Galad and got a slap on the wrist for a sentence. Risky? Yes, but not foolish. And he stayed true to himself by doing the right thing.
Quote:
This is more Neald than Perrin.
Perrin made the hammer, Neald just stepped in and channeled with the aid of others. Perrin at least knew he was making a hammer, Neald just acted on a feeling and didn'
t really know what he was doing.
Quote:
You left off the biggest mistake - he didn't put down Masema even after both his own nose and the constant warnings of the Wise Ones told him the man was rabid and a danger to the Dragon. Faile shouldn't have had to take care of this, but if she hadn't the Prophet would still be alive.
I'll give you that, I too think he should have had him dealt with way sooner. And I was hoping for a big Perrin-Masema showdown rather than him being ganked by Faile. lol.
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  #8  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Gawyn didn't help anyone escape the tower, they did that on their own. All he did was choose not to turn them in when he caught them on their way out of TV. Nothing even remotely heroic about that.
Reread the chapter. They wouldn't have gotten out of the city without his help.

Quote:
And so he bested two blademasters, that just shows he's a good swordsman, not a hero. And I still recall him and his brother both getting bested at the same time by a weakened farmboy with hardly any training or fighting experience. If anything, that just shows it doesn't take much to be a blademaster.
This is, nonetheless, a form of competency, albeit with a sword. And losing to Mat is nothing to be ashamed of, he is after all one of the most competent of all the heroes - along with Rand, Min, Moiraine, and Verin.

Quote:
And I don't see how Elaine outmaneuvered him. He didn't want much to begin with, he just started high to see what she was about and ended up getting way more than what he really wanted. I mean, Elaine really didn't much of anything. Much of what she got was pretty much what she already had, nothing really changed for her other than getting a longer trade route which benefits TR just as much and a connection to Saldea while TR also go the addition of receiving the queen's aid if they need it. And they don't even have to pay any taxes! All the while Perring becomes Lord of TR, get's much higher status than he really even wants, his home stay his home, plus much more. He won't just be leading over EF, but Watch Hill and the other towns as well.
He went into that meeting with the intent of capitulating to her demands, as he clearly recognized her as his lawful sovereign, and thus recognized that the Two Rivers was part of Andor. Which is fine, but nothing in that encounter demonstrated his competency, it instead demonstrated his lack of personal ambition. Had he actually wanted an independent Two Rivers, all he need have done was point out that Andor had failed to defend them against the Whitecloaks, who had invaded their lands and abused and harassed their people. Andor's failure to defend against the Trolloc invasion is much more forgivable, considering that they came by Waygate, the failure to stop the Whitecloak incursions is much less forgivable.

Quote:
That wasn't foolish, that was smart. He knew that if he went against Galad or allowed him to get killed when he could prevent it that it would push Morgase away, who also helped him with Elaine. And he was right about needing them in the last battle and arranged to have his sentence postponed until after TG, if they survived. And not only that, he befriended Galad and got a slap on the wrist for a sentence. Risky? Yes, but not foolish. And he stayed true to himself by doing the right thing.
The Whitecloaks are just as rabid as Masema. But for the fact that Galad needed to be saved, I'd have considered his failure to destroy them as great an error as his failure to kill Masema.

Quote:
Perrin made the hammer, Neald just stepped in and channeled with the aid of others. Perrin at least knew he was making a hammer, Neald just acted on a feeling and didn'
t really know what he was doing.
Perrin made a hammar. Neald made it a power-wrought weapon. Without Neald it's just another hammar.
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  #9  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Reread the chapter. They wouldn't have gotten out of the city without his help.
We don't know that. Tons of others escaped the city just fine without any aid, and they most likely would have as well. Again, he didn't do much but write them a note they probably didn't even need in the first place.

Quote:
This is, nonetheless, a form of competency, albeit with a sword. And losing to Mat is nothing to be ashamed of, he is after all one of the most competent of all the heroes - along with Rand, Min, Moiraine, and Verin.
Now he is, yes. But back in book 3 he was, he was still pretty green and hadn't done much fighting. he cut a guy with the dagger and blew the horn, but other than that, he didn't do all that much. Mat is by far my favorite character, but when you think about it, he didn't really do much and the 1st two books. So yeah, him besting the two best students with no training and barely able to even stand on his feet all the while, yeah, not something Gawyn or Galad could ever be proud of.

Quote:
He went into that meeting with the intent of capitulating to her demands, as he clearly recognized her as his lawful sovereign, and thus recognized that the Two Rivers was part of Andor. Which is fine, but nothing in that encounter demonstrated his competency, it instead demonstrated his lack of personal ambition. Had he actually wanted an independent Two Rivers, all he need have done was point out that Andor had failed to defend them against the Whitecloaks, who had invaded their lands and abused and harassed their people. Andor's failure to defend against the Trolloc invasion is much more forgivable, considering that they came by Waygate, the failure to stop the Whitecloak incursions is much less forgivable.
So? That says nothing about his incompetence. He never claimed to be a great negotiator. If anything, that was Failes failing, she's the noble of the two who should know about that sort of stuff. He still walked away gaining a lot more than Elaine did, which is what really counts.


Quote:
The Whitecloaks are just as rabid as Masema. But for the fact that Galad needed to be saved, I'd have considered his failure to destroy them as great an error as his failure to kill Masema.
No they aren't. Over-zealous? Yes, but most of them are not delusional. I mean, look at Dain Bornhald, he killed his best friends because he knew killing Perrin would be wrong after all he did for them. yes, some of the children might be delusional and won't ever change, but the majority are beginning to see things Galad's way and rethink their beliefs of what exactly is right and wrong. You can't judge a whole organization by the mistakes of a few bad eggs.



Quote:
Perrin made a hammar. Neald made it a power-wrought weapon. Without Neald it's just another hammar.
You cannot recreate a dead warder no matter how much power you have. XD Just kidding. lol.

But like I said before, Neald didn't know what he was doing. He could have just as easily turned the hammer into molten lava and burned Perrin's hands off. Even after the deed was done he couldn't explain it. Someone else had to explain what he had done.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:39 AM
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Most incompetent hero?

Siuan easily; you could argue that she planned a lot of it and her and Moirane did the best they could to deal with the DR but lets look at the facts

- She was stilled
- She lost Amerlynhood
- She regained the power (thanks to Nyneave) but much less than before.
- She was advisor to Egwene... who dumped her shortley after getting the WH back.
- She was instrumental in causing the breaking of the tower; moreso than Eladia as she fostered the distrust betwene the Ajah's to cement her own position

In fact her only saving grace is she will not be thought of as the "Worst Amerlyn"... that honour goes to Eladia.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:48 AM
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Then again, for about a decade, Siuan was Amyrlin. During all that time (and the decade before) she was well aware of the existence of the Black Ajah. Yet she never seems to have tried to figure out a way of getting rid of them.
I think that too should be considered as part of her record.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:52 AM
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Elayne.

Talk about having everything handed to her on a silver platter.

If Rand doesn't "hold" the Throne of Andor for her, what does it look like when she arrives back there?
Someone else most likely would of already been Queen and she wouldn't of been returning to an "empty" castle.

She has all but usurped the power of the Aes Sedai and the Amrylin Seat. First with the terrible deal she made with the Seafolk on their behalf and now with what she's trying to do with the Kin.

Rand gave her the Throne of Cairhien....nuff said.
Perrin, almost single-handedly, makes her the most powerful single ruler in Randland, delivering the Two Rivers, Mayene, Ghealdan and a major tie to Saldaea.

Now Mat, who delivered the Bowl of the Winds for her, now hands her the most powerful non-One Power related weapons in the world.

How does she repay Perrin and Mat for all this...treats them like dirt to be scrapped off her embroidered silk slippers.


Seriously, besides saving Birgitte and discovering that she can make ter'angreal, what has she accomplished on her own?

I'm trying not to make this a hate post but damn is that hard to do
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:00 AM
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Seriously, besides saving Birgitte and discovering that she can make ter'angreal, what has she accomplished on her own?
She made friends with Aviendha, which saves Rand (the Saviour of the Universe to be) a whole bunch of trouble he really can do without.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:14 AM
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Wasn't she also the one who found the Bowl of the Winds in TAR? Or was that Nyn? I forget. She also did the weave that bonded her, Ave, and Min to Rand, which I think is the main thing that kept Rand from going totally over the edge. She also created the a'dam that held Mogy.

Also, she didn't treat Mat and Perrin like dirt when they came to see her. She actually treated Mat as a friend before and after the negotiations. As for Perrin, can you really blame her for being ticked at first? She never really knew Perrin all that well and then he starts waving the Manetheren banner and stuff and you know how rumors can go. I think she showed remarkable restraint by not just going head on into war with him and his army.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
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I know how rumours can go, but more importantly: so does she. She also knows that the Dragon Reborn (a fellow with whom she is personally acquainted, I think) is supposed to bring a lot of change.
So she could also have sat down with Perrin and worked out a way of limiting the damage and bringing as much advantage as possible to the two of them without all those threats.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:52 PM
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Yes, she could have. But again, she doesn't know Perrin all that well. remember that scene between Perrin and Rand they set up where they acted out a huge fight? Elaine was never let in on that and so of course stemming from that news reaching her she couldn't be sure what his true intentions were or where his loyalties lied. So she had to come out swinging strong so this potential usurper would know she means business. Any queen who did less in such a situation could be presumed as weak, and she wasn't about to let herself be seen that way. What she did there was very smart.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:01 PM
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She could also have found herself looking dead, if things had gone just a little bit differently. And even if she had survived a fight with a strong ta'veren, risking yet another civil war in Andor on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don doesn't really seem like the kind of thing a prudent ruler would do if it can be avoided.

She could have started with a load of Aes Sedai platitudes, to feel Perrin out and determine what he was actually up to.
Afterwards, if anyone had tried to make trouble over it, she could always say that what Perrin did had been done on Rand's orders and with her permission (true, though those orders were rather vague, and her permission consisted of not trying to object to things she didn't know about at the time) and invite all complainers to either accept it or openly come out for the Shadow.

She could have come out of it leaving the impression that she had been party to the whole thing right from the start. In that way, she could actually have laid the Manetheren problem to rest for once and for all, instead of leaving it as a danger for her descendants.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:33 PM
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No offense, but she had the Kin, the Band, and the Aiel resting right outside her city. Perrin and his army would have been slaughtered. Also, with no wolves in the city or anywhere close by to come to his aid, Elaine would have nuked him with the OP if he so much as tried anything. And if she couldn't, Birgy was right there and she is more than capable of dispatching both Perrin and Faile. And that is without the warder bond, which makes her even deadlier.

Sorry, I really do like Perrin way more than Elaine, but in this instance Elaine did everything right from the position she was in. Perrin knew this as well, which is why he didn't retaliate against her. He too did exactly the right thing, imo.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:48 PM
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No offense, but she had the Kin, the Band, and the Aiel resting right outside her city. Perrin and his army would have been slaughtered. Also, with no wolves in the city or anywhere close by to come to his aid, Elaine would have nuked him with the OP if he so much as tried anything. And if she couldn't, Birgy was right there and she is more than capable of dispatching both Perrin and Faile. And that is without the warder bond, which makes her even deadlier.

Sorry, I really do like Perrin way more than Elaine, but in this instance Elaine did everything right from the position she was in. Perrin knew this as well, which is why he didn't retaliate against her. He too did exactly the right thing, imo.
Well, there's the whole 'using the one power as a weapon' thing. If she didn't use it on Arymilla's army, she wouldn't use it on Perrins. The kin don't fight.

The Band belongs to Mat. He might decide to help Perrin. And he's one of the most capable military commanders in the world, he could easily beat anything Andor has.

The Aiel aren't hers to command, they belong to Rand. They aren't there to defeat her enemies for her.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Well, there's the whole 'using the one power as a weapon' thing. If she didn't use it on Arymilla's army, she wouldn't use it on Perrins. The kin don't fight.

The Band belongs to Mat. He might decide to help Perrin. And he's one of the most capable military commanders in the world, he could easily beat anything Andor has.

The Aiel aren't hers to command, they belong to Rand. They aren't there to defeat her enemies for her.
You can use the OP to defend yourself. So yeah she could have.

The have never had a reason to fight, but it isn't said anywhere that they will not.'

The Band is actually hers to command as they were under contract. Also, during that time, Mat had already left to save Moiraine and wouldn't have been their to tell them otherwise.

And while the Aiel were not hers to command, since her rebirth in becoming Aves 1st sister, I think it's safe to assume they would concider her part of the Aiel as well. And also she a love of Rand's. They have no loyalty towards Perrin at all and would very likely help Elaine battle his army. I'd even go so far as to say that Gaul and the other aiel with Perrin would turn against him in this situation. He wouldn't win, ta'veren or not.

Last edited by Edynol; 04-16-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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