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  #1  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 AM
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Default Aes Sedai and male channelers

I have a lot against the Aess sedai but this is at the top of my list of grouses.


The Aes Sedai know that the dragon reborn is going to be male and a channeler. Consequently their main duty should have been
  • To find ways to heal the madness caused by the taint.
  • At least find a way to contain the madness so that the men won't go totally berserk and do some real damage
They had 3000 years to find an answer to the madness-rand found it in about a year, they have the best library in the world, they have scholarly force in the brown Ajah.

Instead what they do is silly. They have a red ajah who's sole purpose is to hunt the male channelers and gentle them. What if they accidentally gentled the Dragon reborn? What would happen to the world if he is thus gentled? didn't they ever think of that.

Am I right in thinking that the Aes Sedai are really selfish and stupid?
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  #2  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:25 AM
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After hundreds of years of trying to find a way to remove the Taint, the AS finally gave up on it. Sort of like how serious scientists in our world have given up on making a perpetuum mobile: they know that the laws of nature do not allow that.
The AS may very well have been reasoning that since the DO is comparable to the Creator, he too could write laws of nature, and the Taint might be an example of that.
Rand, of course, had a bit more of an incentive to find a cure.

Some AS thought of the risk of gentling the DR. That's one of the reasons why Moiraine and Siuan were trying to find him; to prevent that from happening.
Others may have reasoned that the Pattern wouldn't let that happen, so they need not worry about the possibility.

You are right in thinking that they are selfish and stupid.
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  #3  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:30 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Rand didn't find the cure for madness, he just found a way to stop it. Nynaeve found the cure. But yeah I agree. The AS were so set in their ways that they were essentially machines, no imagination when it came to using the OP differently. They weren't willing to push and prod the boundaries of what was considered safe when using the power. For example, they never studied compulsion because they were afraid of sisters using it for devious means. You don't have to be a DF to covet power and such, and one could argue that since it didn't really do any direct, physical harm, it wasn't a weapon and so on. Nynaeve, on the other, threw custom out the window habitually and had a few opportunities to study compulsion.

And when she finally had enough of that ashy going on about fades and delved deep inside his head, what did she finally find? That the taint madness was very similar to compulsion in the way it wrapped itself around ones brain. And just like she did with that one guy, though failing, to a degree it being her first time, she did with that ashy, being careful not to make the same mistakes.

So yeah, after eons do things a certain, the AS stopped learning new things and stopped progressing when it came to the power until the super girls came and shook everything up. Once they did that, things started picking up and the other younger AS took after them. Like re-discovering how to make cuendillar(I can't remember, but wasn't some random novice or accepted that discovered that instead of one of the super girls?)

So if the AS had just taken more chances, who knows where they would be today? Hell they might have discovered how to cure death! Remember even RJ himself once said the OP couldn't cure madness, well, we all know even what was once considered canon isn't always fact set in stone. So who knows what's possible with the power?
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:38 AM
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I can't remember, but wasn't some random novice or accepted that discovered that instead of one of the super girls?
Yeah, it was the random Accepted who got stuffed into the position of Amyrlin by the rebels. Her name is Egwene al'Vere.

Edited to add:

In defense of the AS: the Shadow was actively working to discourage them from making any progress.
That was a major reason for the Trolloc Wars: to shatter all cohesion and do away with the attempts to return to the Age of Legends.

And it is quite possible that the Black Ajah has been working to prevent any innovation too. It would be relatively simple and totally in character for them: kill any innovative AS in such a way that it seems to be a result of her experiments, and eventually the AS will conclude that experimentation is dangerous. Plus, as a bonus those innovative AS will stop innovating, once they're dead.

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  #5  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:11 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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It was Eggy? Okay. But I remember there gbeing one or two things not discovered by one of the supergirls.
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  #6  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:35 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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The Aes Sedai in general are victims of RJ using them to make the Supergirls look good, often in a really forced and illogical way.

Though I can't fault them for the gentling at all - they tried to find a solution for hundreds of years, didn't work, so they resorted to the tried and safe course instead of keep risking with people who can go destroy cities single-handedly when they go insane. The Pattern will take care of the Dragon when the time comes.
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  #7  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:23 AM
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If you have been taught that this is the way to do something and actively discoraged from experimentation both with the power and objects of the power..

You can forgive the Tower Aes Sedai from not discovering all that they might; remember even the greatest of the Aes Sedai spent 10 years in the tower being indoctrinated to think and act in a cetain way.

It comes no surprise that recruits who have spent barely any time in the tower and muddle through on their own are far more flexible to attempting new things.

Even the research into men's channeling in the trolloc wars (they found even whilst asleep a man could be maintained in a circle) was only an attempt to have larger circles of saidier; whist the man was sleeping. A true circle in the AoL would be more 50/50 but I'll wager they made no attempt to utilise saidien... just used more saidier.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:20 AM
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Yeah I ain't putting any fault on the AS, just saying that is why they haven't achieved their max potential. They were all institutionalized until the supergirls came and broke their routine. I was just saying if they had experimented more and acted like the supergirls they wouldn't be the way they are now. Or were, I should say now.

And yes, I very much believe the BA was behind this doctrine of 'playing it safe' to keep the AS from rediscovering AOL weaves and such. I remember making a thread a few years ago about just that. lol.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:41 AM
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Um...Deus Ex Mach-


Do I really have to finish this thought?
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  #10  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:47 AM
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Then it seems the AS, for all their posturing and sermonizing others are totally gullible and pliable.

The BA manipulating them into not finding the cure for madness due to taint is an excuse and lame at that.

They forgot their primary duty. They were so wrapped up in their own awesomeness that they failed the world. What did they achieve all these millennia? practically nothing. As an example, if somebody wanted a cure for an incurable disease, they have to go all the way to Tar Valon. Ah! If you are a king or a queen, then you have your own personal pet AS like Elaida, Annnoura etc etc. Why didn't they set up healing centres all over the land? as for the Green Ajah! they are never where they are needed, the borderlands. In fact the borderlands are left to defend for themselves.

If they couldn't realize that they are being manipulated by BA, then they are even more incompetent than I thought.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:00 PM
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Then it seems the AS, for all their posturing and sermonizing others are totally gullible and pliable.

The BA manipulating them into not finding the cure for madness due to taint is an excuse and lame at that.

They forgot their primary duty. They were so wrapped up in their own awesomeness that they failed the world. What did they achieve all these millennia? practically nothing. As an example, if somebody wanted a cure for an incurable disease, they have to go all the way to Tar Valon. Ah! If you are a king or a queen, then you have your own personal pet AS like Elaida, Annnoura etc etc. Why didn't they set up healing centres all over the land? as for the Green Ajah! they are never where they are needed, the borderlands. In fact the borderlands are left to defend for themselves.
They also have saved the world a few times over. They have been the main force against the shadow for three thousand years. Yes the WT as an institution has failed but you can hardly fault them for not finding a way to remove the taint. They had no knowledge of the access keys and no idea how to even begin something they thought only the creator could do.

As for Greens in the Borderlands yes they are up there guarding. It is mentioned in tEotW world as well when Agelmar is getting scouting reports from them. Pre-travelling when the heaviest action they saw since the Trolloc Wars was raiding not sure how you expect a group that small to cover the whole border?
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Are there actually Warders and Aes Sedai guarding the Blight at all times? Or is that another TEOTWism?
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Well, there are Aes Sedai and Warders staying with most Borderlander monarchs.
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I would say that yes, they are up there guarding...
In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.

Of all the things you can hate AS for not sure why you would pick on the Reds? As unlikable as they are their work has been a necessity that no one can argue against.
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:27 PM
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In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.
Which really really helps all those "Hey, I fell and cracked open my skull" type of people...not to mention disease/illnesses that aren't mass outbreaks. If anything, the Yellow should want to have a couple sisters in at least every major city for such issues...if they actually did care so much about healing the sick.
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  #13  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:40 PM
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Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:40 PM
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Which really really helps all those "Hey, I fell and cracked open my skull" type of people...not to mention disease/illnesses that aren't mass outbreaks. If anything, the Yellow should want to have a couple sisters in at least every major city for such issues...if they actually did care so much about healing the sick.
Which is why I said
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Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals
Not to mention those sisters working in the world do quite a bit of that.

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The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter.
My overall point though is Gholam's thought process seems to be a bit misguided. That is all.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.
My thought process on this is that the Green Ajah considered itself the nuclear weapons of Randland and they held themselves in reserve for another Trolloc Wars type of event. They probably looked at the situation as a type of risk assessment where the Borderland nations were capable of handling the average Myrdraal/Trolloc raids without OP assistance so it was smarter to just save their numbers for the inevitable Last Battle/next Trollocs Wars event. If you'll recall, the Amyrlin was going to seen a massive AS/Warder led task force to save Malkier but they arrived too late...so clearly there was a process in place for such emergencies even if it was too late in that particular scenario....a scenario that almost certainly occurred as a result of the Wheel needing Lan to become Moiraine's warder so she could find Rand in the TR and help him become the Dragon Reborn. Thus, the Wheel basically fvcked over the best laid plans of the WT in that scenario all so the crown prince of Malkier could become a warder instead.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:00 PM
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Any specifics about borderland Greens and Warders. I am not talking about the greens comfortably ensconced in a kings court. I am talking about those who actually fight. If anything, most of the green Ajah should be in the borderlands for they are the fighting Ajah and AS only fight with the shadownspawn. Where else do they find trollocs if not at the borderlands? But we see... how many greens fighting there? We have seen Ituralde, fighting at the BL with the help of Ashaman. We have seen Mradon almost falling. Where were the AS there.

As for them saving the world from shadow, of course they might have done some good accidentally.
We have a quote from the author saying they are up there guarding. They quite obviously are not just sitting court. In addition from tEotW...

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None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe
Now if we know around that time that...
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"Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea – the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars; the raids have never been so fierce, or so large, or pressed home so hard
A winter of heavy raiding has been damn near unheard of since the Trolloc Wars, what would you have them do given the size of the border and low numbers of AS? Davien has the right of it in his post. We know Greens are up their fighting but pre-travelling it would be close to impossible to be in the right place at the right time to combat raids.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:04 PM
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Perhaps they consider themselves nuclear weapons, but they are in fact soldiers. Perhaps highly specialized soldiers, but soldiers all the same, who could have used 'tour' type rotations on the Blightborder to gain experience.

I always felt the lack of Aes Sedai presence in the world was how Jordan wanted the story to progress, to give room for the rise of the young hero's, and using the needs of the Pattern and the machinations of the Black Ajah/Shadow to achieve that setting.

It's too bad, really. I would have enjoyed seeing even a glimpse of the world with Aes Sedai an active presence, in their relative roles (there are threads in the archive about it, with each Ajah having a useful and practical job).
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:10 PM
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I always felt the lack of Aes Sedai presence in the world was how Jordan wanted the story to progress, to give room for the rise of the young hero's, and using the needs of the Pattern and the machinations of the Black Ajah/Shadow to achieve that setting.
But here is the thing. We know a percentage of the WT is out in the world at any given time. Every sisters rooms we come across have mementos from a long life lived outside the WT adventuring. We just don't see those average every day sisters in the main story.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:29 PM
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But here is the thing. We know a percentage of the WT is out in the world at any given time. Every sisters rooms we come across have mementos from a long life lived outside the WT adventuring. We just don't see those average every day sisters in the main story.
I'm too busy to look up the quote right now but isnt there a statement about how only 1/3 of all AS live in the WT at any given time even if all of them have assigned rooms there. Of that 1/3 (say 350 AS at the time of the statement), a good portion of them are probably involved in the administration of the WT and Tar Valon (Hall, Amyrlin, Keeper), as well as training the next set of AS (teachers, Brown Ajah librarians, etc). The rest are probably rotating in and out as they need to as its just a home base. The other 600-700 AS were basically gone at all times. Randland is just a very big place.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:58 PM
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My thought process on this is that the Green Ajah considered itself the nuclear weapons of Randland and they held themselves in reserve for another Trolloc Wars type of event. They probably looked at the situation as a type of risk assessment where the Borderland nations were capable of handling the average Myrdraal/Trolloc raids without OP assistance so it was smarter to just save their numbers for the inevitable Last Battle/next Trollocs Wars event. If you'll recall, the Amyrlin was going to seen a massive AS/Warder led task force to save Malkier but they arrived too late...so clearly there was a process in place for such emergencies even if it was too late in that particular scenario....a scenario that almost certainly occurred as a result of the Wheel needing Lan to become Moiraine's warder so she could find Rand in the TR and help him become the Dragon Reborn. Thus, the Wheel basically fvcked over the best laid plans of the WT in that scenario all so the crown prince of Malkier could become a warder instead.
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.
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