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  #1  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:09 PM
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Default Ogiers and Tinkers

I have thought about this a little.

A small spoiler warning for those infidels who hasn't read ToM yet.


We know that Loial will be talking at the Great Stump, trying to convince the Ogier to fight in the last battle instead of running away.
He will probably succeed in that, although the Ogier will be stuck in their ways and not easily persuaded.

Well then, how will they fight.
They have no, or very little battle training.

I think that they will do something similar as was described in Rand's past lives when he walked among the columns in Rhuidean.

I also think that the Tinkers will be involved. They will find their song and will sing it together with the Ogier.
The Tinkers have not done much in this book series, except provide the story element for the Aiel history.

I don't have anything to back it up with except my gut feeling.

I know that several of you are more steeped in WoT lore.
Whereas I am a fanatic, you are borderline psycotic. But, in a good way.
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  #2  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
I have thought about this a little.

A small spoiler warning for those infidels who hasn't read ToM yet.


We know that Loial will be talking at the Great Stump, trying to convince the Ogier to fight in the last battle instead of running away.
He will probably succeed in that, although the Ogier will be stuck in their ways and not easily persuaded.

Well then, how will they fight.
They have no, or very little battle training.
There is at least one group of Ogier who have at least a little experience of battle: the Seanchan Deathwatch Guards. How much contact, if any, they have with the present day Randland Ogier is unknown. It's possible they have none, but it's also possible there is communication between them. I've always found the Ogier Gardeners fascinating; why choose to submit to the Seanchan Empress? Why abandon the historical links between Ogier and Aes Sedai to support collaring? What did the Seanchan Aes Sedai do to anger the Ogier and bring the mountains down on their own heads?

Quote:
I think that they will do something similar as was described in Rand's past lives when he walked among the columns in Rhuidean.

I also think that the Tinkers will be involved. They will find their song and will sing it together with the Ogier.
The Tinkers have not done much in this book series, except provide the story element for the Aiel history.

I don't have anything to back it up with except my gut feeling.

I know that several of you are more steeped in WoT lore.
Whereas I am a fanatic, you are borderline psycotic. But, in a good way.
There is actually a theory about this.
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  #3  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:28 PM
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Off the wall theory: The Seanchan Ogier/Deathwatch Guard are the true power in Seanchan and the Empress, may she live forever, is just their puppet.

Sure, there's zero evidence in the books for such a theory but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
There is at least one group of Ogier who have at least a little experience of battle: the Seanchan Deathwatch Guards. How much contact, if any, they have with the present day Randland Ogier is unknown. It's possible they have none, but it's also possible there is communication between them. I've always found the Ogier Gardeners fascinating; why choose to submit to the Seanchan Empress? Why abandon the historical links between Ogier and Aes Sedai to support collaring? What did the Seanchan Aes Sedai do to anger the Ogier and bring the mountains down on their own heads?
I wouldn't be surprised if the Ogier was forced to send young males to the empire's surface in exchange for using steddings within the seanchan empire.

After a couple of hundred years it became a normal way of doing things. Maybe some old Ogier still remember a time before servitude.

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There is actually a theory about this.
I wouldn't say this is the idea I put forward. The one you linked to goes way beyond that and is kind of nutty.
I know it was last years looney theories winner.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:09 AM
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Its mentioned in one of the later books that the Ogier deathwatch guards are not property like the human ones, and that the arrangement is private between the Ogier and the Empress. I'm thinking that rules out any argument that they are slaves.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:23 AM
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Its mentioned in one of the later books that the Ogier deathwatch guards are not property like the human ones, and that the arrangement is private between the Ogier and the Empress. I'm thinking that rules out any argument that they are slaves.
Just because they claim they aren't slaves doesn't actually make them not slaves
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:32 PM
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Just because they claim they aren't slaves doesn't actually make them not slaves
Unless there is a text or explanation of the agreement between the Empress and Seanchan Ogier, then claiming they are slaves is pure speculation.

Ogier can neutralize the Empire's greatest strength: Damane. And they can provide excellent and unique services to the Empire.

My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:38 PM
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Unless there is a text or explanation of the agreement between the Empress and Seanchan Ogier, then claiming they are slaves is pure speculation.

Ogier can neutralize the Empire's greatest strength: Damane. And they can provide excellent and unique services to the Empire.

My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.
Couple minor problems here:

1. Ogier arent immune to channeling unless they're in their stedding.

2. Seanchan Ogier dont suffer from the Longing.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:40 PM
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My assumption is that they are "honored citizens" in the Empire. And they provide a set number of Gardeners to the Throne. These Gardeners change every few years to overcome the longing.
They don't need to visit the Stedding as the Ogier east of the Aryth Ocean do.
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WEEK 3 QUESTION
How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many stedding in Seanchan?
ROBERT JORDAN
There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:22 PM
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Thanks for the corrections, Oden and Davian; and for teaching me something that I was unaware of.

My reference to neutralizing damane was meant for the steddings, not the Ogier. They are immune to damane inside the steddings.

On the original point, I just ran into the quote about the status of Ogier Gardeners.

Path of Daggers; Kadere PoV in the battle against Rand: "Ogier Gardeners were not marked or owned; but that was between them and the Empress."
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:26 PM
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1. Ogier arent immune to channeling unless they're in their stedding.
Do we know this?

Have there been channeling done at Ogiers in the books?

They are bound to and maybe even part of the stedding.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:29 PM
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Do we know this?

Have there been channeling done at Ogiers in the books?

They are bound to and maybe even part of the stedding.
A complete and utter assumption that no creature is immune to channeling outside of the gholam. I would think it would be noted somewhere if Ogier had a similar protection outside of their residence within the Stedding (which itself is not complete protection given the existence of Wells for channeling).
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:36 PM
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My assumption is that there is protection or immunity from OP weaves directed at the person (shields, air wraps and gags, and the like); but elemental attacks are different: lightning and fireballs.

Mat died by lightning when Rahvin hit him; and Joline's fireball in Hindersap (sp.) didn't disappear when it came near him. If anyone has a reference on the subject, I would love to read it.

If elemental attacks are an exception, then Ogier would not be immune to them. But that leaves the question of "was the gholem immune to elemental attacks?"
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:57 PM
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My assumption is that there is protection or immunity from OP weaves directed at the person (shields, air wraps and gags, and the like); but elemental attacks are different: lightning and fireballs.

Mat died by lightning when Rahvin hit him; and Joline's fireball in Hindersap (sp.) didn't disappear when it came near him. If anyone has a reference on the subject, I would love to read it.

If elemental attacks are an exception, then Ogier would not be immune to them. But that leaves the question of "was the gholem immune to elemental attacks?"
I think if someone lobbed a stone into a Stedding, it would obviously hit/kill whatever it landed on...the same as if they caused a lightning strike.

Other than that, I dont see how that helps Ogier outside the stedding.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:04 PM
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I think if someone lobbed a stone into a Stedding, it would obviously hit/kill whatever it landed on...the same as if they caused a lightning strike.

Other than that, I dont see how that helps Ogier outside the stedding.
I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:08 PM
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I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?
I'm sure if you threw a rock with the OP at a gholam, it would maybe slow it down. The problem would be hitting it as they are fast and it making any bit of a difference given that stabbing one doesnt matter at all so I doubt hitting it with a rock would either...the same with a lightning bolt.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
I am not arguing that Ogier are immune to the OP outside the stedding. I never intended to say that; and I don't believe they are.

My post was an aside on immunity or protection from the OP. It seems that elemental attacks with the OP kill persons with something like Mat's terangreal. Would these elemental attacks also strike persons with other kinds of protection (if there are any - like the gholam)?
It has to do with whether it is direct, or indirect.

For example, the reason the lightning was still able to kill Mat, was because the channeling was directed at the clouds, to cause real lightning. Balefire, on the other hand, disappears, because the actual weaves are hitting him (or rather, not).

If you tear up the earth under his feet, he'll die. If you try to set him on fire, he'll be fine.
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Old 04-28-2012, 04:05 AM
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If you tear up the earth under his feet, he'll die. If you try to set him on fire, he'll be fine.
Set the earth under him on fire, then. Let him try tap dancing on a lava lake.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:25 AM
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A complete and utter assumption that no creature is immune to channeling outside of the gholam. I would think it would be noted somewhere if Ogier had a similar protection outside of their residence within the Stedding (which itself is not complete protection given the existence of Wells for channeling).
Does a Well work in a stedding? We know that it works in Far Madding, but the Guardians only block you from accessing the One Power. It doesn't work the same as a stedding.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:30 AM
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Does a Well work in a stedding? We know that it works in Far Madding, but the Guardians only block you from accessing the One Power. It doesn't work the same as a stedding.
It's been heavily implied that it does.
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