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  #1  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:30 PM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Default Gawyn

Why do people hate him so much? He doesn't have any great reason to be lotal to Siuan Sanche, and his decisions are fairly logical considering he can't Travel and no one ever tells him anything.
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:37 PM
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Because he knows he's made the wrong decisions yet sticks by them and doesn't let go until waaay too late. And even when he lets go he abandons his responsibilities to do it. He's unable to grasp political realities despite being raised in the palace of one of the more savvy politicians of the day. He suspects Elaida's trying to kill him AND his men, and does nothing.

Bottom line: he's an idiot.
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  #3  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:27 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Gawyn swore to kill the Dragon Reborn, knowing full well this would mean literally the end of the world, because of a rumor he heard from a guy he never met before. He's not even a Darkfriend which at least would have made this decision somewhat logical. It was incredibly dumb and selfish from him.

I really don't get why he stayed with the the Elaida faction even after he realised she was trying to have him killed. After Dumai's Wells, he should've left.
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  #4  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Gawyn swore to kill the Dragon Reborn, knowing full well this would mean literally the end of the world, because of a rumor he heard from a guy he never met before. He's not even a Darkfriend which at least would have made this decision somewhat logical. It was incredibly dumb and selfish from him.
Then again, his girlfriend, who knew full well that the rumour of Morgase's death had already reached Cairhien the day before Rand even attacked Caemlyn, did not bother to mention that fact to Gawyn.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't have done some fact checking of himself, of course, but he was definitely not the only one acting like a brainless loobie when it came to the guilt or innocence of the DR.

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I really don't get why he stayed with the the Elaida faction even after he realised she was trying to have him killed. After Dumai's Wells, he should've left.
Habit. That's a fairly common human behavior pattern. Not only human, come to that.
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  #5  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:03 AM
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He's not even a Darkfriend
Are we sure he's not a Darkfriend?
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:34 AM
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Personally I think Gawyn is meant more as symbolism than anything else.

1> believes rumours, propaganda and hype - as most of randland do.. until finally shown the truth of the matter
2> has his bonds and oaths shattered and remade with the coming of the Dragon Reborn
3> starts out as a child.. and leads children to war before he finally "grows up"
4> Constantly tries to choose from what is right.. and what he is told.

I believe Gawyn the character is James Oliver Rigney Jr. (the man behind the author), trying to explain the feelings which can never be explained when he served in Vietnam. So he is a complete mess of emotions constantly send out to kill or be killed by a regime more concerned with power and propaganda than truth only being told what he needs to know. In short he is the characterisation of all the common soliders of the land not knowing what or who he fights for; and even when he makes a decision he is still plagued by self doubt.

At the end he only truely understands why he fights; when he knows what he is fighting for - and is ready to die for; only then has he "grown up".


Gawyn the character is a moaning little boy; but taking a step back he is pretty much the only main POV character who isn't "in charge" of anything.. nor have any real agenda. His story is one shared by all the soldiers of Randland... and even the Aiel to some extent, as they are all plagued by the self doubt to the question of:

"Why do we fight?".


I still don't like him though :P
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  #7  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:27 AM
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Gawyn and Egwene are perfect for each other...they're both idiots.
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  #8  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:37 AM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Doesn't mean he shouldn't have done some fact checking of himself, of course
How? If he wants to go to Caemlyn, he has to walk/ride, which will take weeks or months. And there are small matters of the Winter Snows and the fact that Caemlyn is under siege! Even if he gets there, how does he plan to get in?

That rumour is the only information he has No one knows Rahvin is a Forsaken, and Elayne is initially skeptical anyone could have a hold on her mother.

He doesn't know about compulsion. So...
Morgase, dead. Rand attacked Caemlyn. Reasonable judgement. He's much too vehement with it, but it's not an unreasonable position.

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I really don't get why he stayed with the the Elaida faction even after he realised she was trying to have him killed.
Because by then, he's the commander of the Younglings, it it's not an easy choice to just walk away from people who are looking to you for their survival.

Travelling alone in winter isn't just a matter of walking for a long time. You need packhorses, equipment, money, food, etc.

Gareth Bryne's camp is nearby, but Caemlyn is a long way to travel alone, presumably pursued.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
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You do realize that Gawyn was told of the Rand killed Morgase rumor well before any of that happened (Caemlyn siege, winter, etc etc)...right?
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:59 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
How? If he wants to go to Caemlyn, he has to walk/ride, which will take weeks or months. And there are small matters of the Winter Snows and the fact that Caemlyn is under siege! Even if he gets there, how does he plan to get in?

That rumour is the only information he has No one knows Rahvin is a Forsaken, and Elayne is initially skeptical anyone could have a hold on her mother.

He doesn't know about compulsion. So...
Morgase, dead. Rand attacked Caemlyn. Reasonable judgement. He's much too vehement with it, but it's not an unreasonable position.
Well, just for starters: he could have asked the girl who was with the DR when that fellow was planning to conquer Caemlyn. As an additional way of checking it, he could try to get more than one single source of rumour.

As you yourself say: "Morgase, dead. Rand attacked Caemlyn. Reasonable judgement."
How is that a reasonable judgment, given that you actually got the apparent order right (first Morgase died, only afterwards did Rand attack Caemlyn)?

I would say that given the fact that Rand was not in Caemlyn when the first rumours of her death started gives him a bit of an alibi. I would further say that the coronation of king Gaebril suggests that there might actually be another culprit entirely. And finally there's the fact that if he had bothered to ask her about it, then Egwene could have told him that Gaebril was in reality Rahvin. True, she should've done that without having been asked quite that explicit a question, especially when she found out that Gawyn was blaming Rand, but hey, she's Egwene.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:42 AM
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I agree with most here. Gawyn is the fool of the story. And not in a funny way. He is told by people he actually trusts (and one that he loves) that Rand didn't kill his mother, yet he still believes rumor.

He refused to leave Elaida, knowing that she was trying to kill him. And the argument that you cant leave men that rely on you...He led those men into those situations, already knowing that Elaida wanted him and the younglings dead. Then he did leave them. Which he should have know they would be better off without him around, since his men wouldnt have had the balls to defy the Aes Sedai like he did.

AND....

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Gawyn and Egwene are perfect for each other...they're both idiots.
You are so right...
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Because by then, he's the commander of the Younglings, it it's not an easy choice to just walk away from people who are looking to you for their survival.
Well, he didn't have a problem abandoning Andor, did he? Gawyn doesn't think - he's too impulsive and acts on not enough information. It seems that may have changed lately, but he'll have to atone for a lot of stupid things said and done to move on, in my opinion.
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
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Well, he didn't have a problem abandoning Andor, did he? Gawyn doesn't think - he's too impulsive and acts on not enough information. It seems that may have changed lately, but he'll have to atone for a lot of stupid things said and done to move on, in my opinion.
Gawyn is the stereotypical HS Jock in an 80s movie.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2012, 01:39 PM
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pshaw.

Gawyn is/was:

1. The son of a man who didn't want him
2. The less good looking brother
3. A son of a queen in a realm that is matriarchal
4. Taught he must ALWAYS protect a sister who has no interest in his ideas & thoughts and who wants him to go away. Ungrateful little snit.
5. A trained soldier given no respect upon entering Tar Valon, another matriarchal society
6. A student of Warders who is given the choice of supporting what he was taught and raised to respect, or kill his teacher. Then living with the guilt.
7. A young man in love with an obstinate girl who won't commit to him and requires he step aside in every situation.


Please, I don't blame him for being a dopey, mopey annoying man. EDIT: annoying boy. He isn't a man yet, no one will let him be one.
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:43 PM
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I think Gawyn was someone who had a very clear purpose in his life. That is, to protect Elayne. He tried to do it, but was never really allowed to while at the WT. Then when the chaos came he failed to adapt. He made a choice which at the time seemed logical to him, but which he would probably come to regret. By the time he realized that, he was stuck with the responsibility for hundreds of people.

I think he was probably incredibly stubborn about his blaming of Rand, even after he was told by Egwene that Rand had nothing to do with Morgase's death, because it was an easy outlet for his anger, his frustration, his confusion. After all, Rand is blamed for pretty much everything that is wrong in the world. He is seen as the bringer of chaos and unstability, which have greatly affected Gawyn
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:47 PM
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To be fair to Gawyn, he was never given the chance to fulfill his duty to protect Elayne because Elayne wouldn't allow it. True, the Tower did not help matters, but Elayne and her gal friends certainly would have gone out of their way to prevent the brothers from helping no matter what.

What always got me about Gawyn though was that he ignored his ties and loyalties to Andor. He often talked about his oath to protect his sister, yet when he KNOWS she's not in the Tower and not going to be there as long as Elaida is Amyrlin, when he KNOWS she's in Andor fighting desparately for her crown, he... worries about the Younglings?

Everything else can be debated as to when he knew what, if he was told about this or that, etc etc. The math is simple though.
1)Sworn oath to protect sister, be her sword arm
2)Sister in Caemlyn
3)Caemlyn under siege, other claimants
4)Set course for Caemlyn... engage!
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:03 PM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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IIRC Gawyn learned where Elayne is in TGS when the succession war was over, before that he had no idea she was in Caemlyn and fighting a war.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
4. Taught he must ALWAYS protect a sister who has no interest in his ideas & thoughts and who wants him to go away.
You seem to be mixing him up with Galad. While Gawyn was dismissed a bit during WT scenes, it's silly and counter-canon to characterize his relationship with Elayne in this way.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:54 PM
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You seem to be mixing him up with Galad. While Gawyn was dismissed a bit during WT scenes, it's silly and counter-canon to characterize his relationship with Elayne in this way.
Silly?

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56 TITLE: Dragon Reborn
* CHAPTER: 16 - Hunters Three
* The golden-haired young man leaned forward in his chair. "The question is, where have you been? Elayne dodges my questions as if she has a pocket full of figs and doesn't want me to have any."
Reread this chapter. She wants him to leave her to her own decisions and continues throughout most of the books to share basically NO information with him. Her allegiance is to the Tower and she feels he does not respect that.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:14 PM
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Reread this chapter. She wants him to leave her to her own decisions and continues throughout most of the books to share basically NO information with him. Her allegiance is to the Tower and she feels he does not respect that.
Seconded. At no point in the series did Elayne actually want her brother around until her Warder was making her life a living hell because she didnt want to be in charge of the Andoran army.
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