art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:37 PM
IvySedai IvySedai is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
IvySedai is an unknown quantity at this point
Lightbulb Tenobia: High Ranking darkfriend?

During my rereading of the series I came to a scene where Elayne meets the Borderlands rulers to negotiate their passage through Andor. I don´t have the exact quote here, but I borrowed a summary from Leigh Butler´s reread of WH,ch27:

"Merilille introduces her as “Elayne Trakand, of the Green Ajah”; Easar, Paitar and Ethenielle greet her courteously, but Tenobia remarks bluntly to Merilille that Elayne looks more like a child than an Aes Sedai, and asks why she’s brought “a black-eyed Aiel” along. The other three monarchs are visibly annoyed, and Aviendha is confused, muttering that she never even saw black eyes on anyone except peddlers before coming to the wetlands. Elayne tells Tenobia it is enough to know she is Aes Sedai, and introduces Aviendha and Birgitte, naming the former her sister and the latter her Warder, which confuses the Borderlanders. Giving them no time to recover, Elayne immediately sits down and remarks that since “only a fool” would think they are here to invade Andor, they must be here because of the Dragon Reborn."

Now, I know that there are theories around about Tenobia being a darkfriend, reinforced by the fact that her cousin Vram Torkumen, whom she left in charge of Maradon in her absence, is a confirmed darkfriend. But, if I´m not mistaken, there weren´t any really conclusive proves to that. Until ToM came out and we are presented to the shadow´s dark-eyed Aiel at the end of the book. And Tenobia clearly mentions them to others during this meeting.

Well, I am probably being lazy anyway because this must surely have been discussed already elsewhere in the forums (I just can´t find it). But I´d like to know, do people think she can be a higher ranking darkfriend? After all, she knows of things that were hidden deep into the blight. Some Forsaken, even Moridin, might have shown them to her. I don´t think their presence was common knowledge at the Borderlands, the guy killed by the black-eyed Aiel was from Kandor and he didn´t recognize them.

And what does this make of Tenobia´s oaths of loyalty to the Dragon? What might happen at the Fields of Merrilor, with an entire army commanded by a darkfriend? How does this fit with Min´s viewing of Tenobia, a spear hovering over her head, bloody, but shining in the light? Is it going to be a la Sheriam? Or not?

Any thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Rand al'Fain's Avatar
Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,089
Rand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Well, Aiel are reffered to as "black-eyed" by many characters thoughout the series, outside of a few that either have had contact with them (through battle/trade/whatever) or studied them (like Elayne and her brothers), well prior to them coming over the Dragonwall with Rand at that.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:59 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,097
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default

Hmmm. Hadn't thought about it in connection to the generalization of black eyed Aiel. The red-veiled (gonna getcha, getcha) Aiel is described as dark eyed, glassy eyed but I honestly assumed it was something to do with the True Power. Could very well be they are created beings using the True Power, therefore the eyes are black. And obviously they would have had to exist (created or not) in the past for the label "black eyed Aiel" to become common.

I vote against Tenobia being a DF, she is just stubborn and has firm beliefs about the world. Aiel = bad in her mind, so she is labeling them in a general way.

Dunno. Good questions.
__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-02-2012, 07:11 PM
Swordcrowned Swordcrowned is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 28
Swordcrowned is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:09 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordcrowned View Post
I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.
Not true. First, he had to line up all the Tairen lords and ladies and try to force them to look in his eyes before he could be sure about Weiramon. Second, he was tipped off in a letter from Verin.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:11 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,001
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordcrowned View Post
I am going to vote no on this one, based on the fact that she came in contact with Super Rand after his trip to Dragonmount. He, at that time was able to recognize a darkfriend on sight.
Good point.

That probably eliminates all of the other borderland rulers, too.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:16 PM
maleshub maleshub is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 268
maleshub is a jewel in the roughmaleshub is a jewel in the roughmaleshub is a jewel in the rough
Default

Quote:
ToM (A Testing):
"Tenobia has a spear hovering over her head," Min said. "Bloody, but shining in the light. Ethenielle will soon be wed — I see that by white doves. She plans to do something dangerous today, so be careful. The other two have various swords, shields and arrows hovering about them. Both will fight soon."
Min's viewing of Tenobia is that she has a bloody spear over her head that is "shining in the Light." I don't think she's a Darkfriend.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-03-2012, 03:03 PM
IvySedai IvySedai is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
IvySedai is an unknown quantity at this point
Wink

To Rand al´Fain: I might be mistaken (I don´t have a list with Aiel citations with me) but IIRC people refer to Aiel as "black-veiled Aiel", not "black-eyed Aiel". In this scene specifically RJ makes a point of calling out our attention to the fact that Tenobia used the expression "black-eyed" (and not "black-veiled") by making Aviendha comment on it. I remember, when I first read it, that I thought Tenobia had only confused the saying.

To maleshub: That is exactly why I asked if the fullfilment of the viewing would be a la Sheriam. Sheriam´s viewing was this: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light". I could never guess from this golden light that Sheriam would be in the dark side and would end like that. I know the spear is shinning in the light (light, not Light), but it could mean another thing entirely, or it could mean redemption. Who knows?

Maybe Rand would really be able to recognize a darkfriend at sight, or maybe not (as Terez has pointed out). What really tipped me off was RJ commenting on it through Aviendha, so I guessed it could be some indication to Tenobia´s alliances.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-03-2012, 04:24 PM
Rand al'Fain's Avatar
Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,089
Rand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvySedai View Post
To Rand al´Fain: I might be mistaken (I don´t have a list with Aiel citations with me) but IIRC people refer to Aiel as "black-veiled Aiel", not "black-eyed Aiel". In this scene specifically RJ makes a point of calling out our attention to the fact that Tenobia used the expression "black-eyed" (and not "black-veiled") by making Aviendha comment on it. I remember, when I first read it, that I thought Tenobia had only confused the saying.
Good catch.

Quote:
Maybe Rand would really be able to recognize a darkfriend at sight, or maybe not (as Terez has pointed out). What really tipped me off was RJ commenting on it through Aviendha, so I guessed it could be some indication to Tenobia´s alliances.
Or, it could be Tenobia has encountered some of the red-veiled Aiel at some point in her past, since she is a Borderlander and was not always Queen. Not saying that's what happened, but it is certainly a possiility.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Heinz Heinz is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 234
Heinz will become famous soon enoughHeinz will become famous soon enough
Default

Considering the speculation about Bashere's 'something dark', there could be something to Tenobia being a Darkfriend-turned-Light. A situation where they felt compelled to obey once, but now pull an Ingtar (sp?) and act on what they truly believe/desire.

Last edited by Heinz; 05-03-2012 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Poorly worded... shouldn't type thoughts while also working.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
Grig Grig is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 366
Grig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant future
Default

In LoC, the band used "kill the black-eyed vermin" as a battle cry when fighting Aiel.

In TPoD, an Andoran farmer said Rand is one of "them black-eyed Aielmen".

Reading too much into Tenobia's comment.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Some supporting quotes...
Quote:
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 22 - Heading South
Wondering why he was not dead yet—he had been lucky with one Aiel, but nobody had enough luck to face this—he suddenly realized he was no longer alone. A skinny Cairhienin in his smallclothes fell nearly under his feet with a shrill yell, only to be replaced by a Tairen with his shirt flapping and sword swinging. More crowded in, shouting everything from "Lord Matrim and victory!" to "The Red Hand!" to "Kill the black-eyed vermin!"
Quote:
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 20 - Into Andor
"Oh, it's true, my lady, so it is; Elayne's alive," a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. "The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself," he allowed. "The news is all over. 'Tisn't right, if you ask me. He's one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway."
Quote:
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 27 - To Surprise Queens and Kings
Where the others carried their years with grace, Tenobia of Saldaea flaunted youth if not beauty, with her eagle's beak of a nose and wide mouth. Her tilted, almost purple eyes, level with Elayne's, were her best feature. Perhaps her only one. Where the others dressed simply, even if they did rule nations, her pale blue dress was worked with pearls and sapphires and she wore more sapphires in her hair. Suitable for the court, but hardly for a camp. And where they were courteous. . . ."Under the Light, Merilille Sedai," Tenobia said in a high voice, frowning, "I know you speak truth, but she looks more a child than an Aes Sedai. You did not mention she would be bringing a black-eyed Aiel."
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:29 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Some supporting quotes...
I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description. Something that shouldn't apply to a Queen. I thought initially Tenobia was just being insulting to put Elayne off balance but now I'm not so sure.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 58
Jasin Natael is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

It's enough that it's a common misconception in the WT world. Tenobia is a borderlander too young for the Aiel War, why would she need to know the usual eye colour of the Aiel? The people who have met them have other things on their mind at the time, like staying alive.

As for leaving a Darkfriend in charge, that means nothing. Agelmar sent Ingtar to retrieve the Horn. Both Keepers of the Keys were black ajah. Rand has Weiramon on his staff for a long time.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Grig Grig is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 366
Grig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant futureGrig has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description.
Look at a WoT map. Andoran peasants are more likely to have seen an Aiel than a Saldaean like Tenobia.

Quote:
These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description.
Like Elayne? This "monarchs should know about Aiel physiology" line is ridiculous. Re-read the scene where Elayne meets Aviendha. You're making very unwarranted assumptions.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:12 PM
David Selig David Selig is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 391
David Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of lightDavid Selig is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Gawyn told Rand he looked exactly like an Aielman when they met in EOTW, so he clearly knew that they usually have blue or gray eyes.

Of course, the members of the Andoran royal family are more likely to know this than other monarchs since they look like Aiel, and people who have fought in the Aiel war like Gareth Bryne have probably mentioned that to them.

Last edited by David Selig; 05-04-2012 at 08:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 299
Tollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Gawyn knew so much about the Aiel because of his studies as First Prince of the Sword, not from first hand experience.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-04-2012, 08:26 AM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
I think we'll need better quotes. These are all from commoners, people who have never met aiel or had an accurate description. Something that shouldn't apply to a Queen. I thought initially Tenobia was just being insulting to put Elayne off balance but now I'm not so sure.
~face palm~ Of course! Let me dig up all the others that popped up that I deliberately left out!

If you think we need better quotes, how about you find them? As it stands you used them to make another staggering leap of logic. Because somehow being monarchy excludes people from being capable of ignorance...
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-04-2012, 10:44 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Because somehow being monarchy excludes people from being capable of ignorance...
Of course it does. That's why Gawyn never really believed that ludicrous rumour that Rand had killed Morgase.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:13 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 96
Lost One is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Don't think so

It seems that I saw early quotes inte text of Black-eyed Aiel before those mentioned above, but I am not sure where. As far as "it was commoners who said that" .. Well commoners would get the saying from travelers or others third-and further hand accounts. And since it is wrong, as very few Aiel have dark eyes, much less black, we know it is an incorrect stereotype description.

Or it could be that BS simply made an error by putting black-eyed instead of black-veiled, But since there are other quotes of black-eyed Aiel, I doubt that. I think Tenobia just succumbed to the stereotype, which being a hot headed and fiery young woman, is likely.

What other evidence is there to against her?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.