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  #1  
Old 05-10-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default Why does Rand have to die?

This isn't even an actual theory, just an idea I've been toying with since my last reread.

The thought process I had was basically this: "Oh another Rand will die forshadowing"..."Why? Why does he have to die? Okay it's dramatic and all that but what is the purpose? Could he actually achieve something directly by dying?" Then later on the idea came to me that Rand's soul could be used to hold back the Dark One when the seals are broken and the Bore is being Healed.

This is the idea I've had, but so far I haven't been able to find evidence to support it even being possible let alone anything to indicate that it would definitely happen, but I thought that at the very least the original question would be worth discussing.

So why must Rand die? What is the gain?
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2012, 07:39 AM
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Something that springs instantly to mind is that Rand's death and subsequent resurrection might break his link to the land. While this doesn't sound so great, it would actually work for the Light. The Dark One would no longer be able to harm the land by harming Rand, whilst a TAR-resurrected Rand would retain all of his other essential properties, plus some potentially useful past life knowledge. Plus, all the injuries the Shadow has so far succeeded in inflicting upon Rand would be undone, making him both stronger and saner.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:49 AM
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Something you said there Zombie struck me.

A ripped out Rand (a'la Birgitte) would not only have the knowledge of LTT.
He would have the knowledge of all his previous incarnation, just as Birgitte.
These memories may hold the key on how to imprison DO.
The memories would fade away with time, just as for Birgitte.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:00 AM
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He might remember how he sealed away the DO a previous time. But then again, the DO undoubtedly also remembers that, and he'll have planned to prevent a repeat. So if Rand tries it the same way that worked one Turn ago, then it is not at all guaranteed he'll have any succes this time.
Depending too much on old memories could be a fatal mistake.

And I doubt that Rand's death would break his link to the land. The saying is "the Land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the Land". That doesn't limit it to the Dragon Reborn only, does it?
Just generic "Dragon", the DO's ancient enemy.

And finally, why would you want Rand to be any saner? Get him too sane, and he may decide that Moridin has a point after all. It is his insane resistance in the face of overwhelming force which makes him go on right now.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:08 AM
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One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:44 PM
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One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.
Could kill Moridin instead. Which would throw a big fat wrench into the whole "body swap" theory. Wouldn't be the first time Rand killed "him."
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:14 PM
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It would break his link with the girls...which could play a part if the DO (or Moridin) holds/hurts them to try to sway Rand in some way.

Ripping him from Tel'a'dreamyland (join the faction) and having him retain the previous incarnation memories is an even more interesting idea.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:50 PM
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Could kill Moridin instead. Which would throw a big fat wrench into the whole "body swap" theory. Wouldn't be the first time Rand killed "him."
And if Moridin refuses to seek him out to do battle? Moridin doesn't want to kill Rand, and has nothing to gain by battling him (and much to lose -- if either of them dies, he dies).
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:11 PM
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One answer could be that Rand dying is necessary to break his link with Moridin. This makes much more sense than the idea that it would break his link with the land.
A lot.

I don't think Rand being one with Creation is ever broken.

The third Age was in so many ways a reflection of LTT's shattering, madness, grief, paranoia, bursts of hopes followed by shattering failures and despair, races to unity only to give up. In essence, the Third Age lived in the Shadow of LTT/the Dragon, the dominating infuence in the collective inconscious was him, his legend in all its ambiguity. I think this may be the reflect of the "Dragon's dream", with LTT as the last and more dominant influence in the "dead dragon" in TAR, but not the only one either as he was also the aggregate of all Dragons there. Birgitte is a good clue it's still LTT who would have dominated the combo, the more positive side coming from other past lives.

Dramatically, the reason Rand needs to "die" is because Shai'tan is the Lord of the Grave, and if Rand dies the ultimate fight for control of his soul can happen. If Rand is One with the Land, therefore Shai'tan seizing his soul would be huge step (if not the final one) in his takeover of Creation through Rand. Apparently it's the easiest way, but not the best for the DO.

We have two potentially conflicting prophecies concerning Rand's death (if the first one is about Rand): first, Egwene's dream of the dying man in which she's convinced it's vital that man doesn't die. Then we have the Finns saying Rand must die.

IMO this is because Rand will be at some point on the brink of death, in circumstances after "the great battle" where his soul would be seized by the DO, thus the future will balance on the edge of a blade. Nynaeve's task then will be to keep him alive until the circumstances have passed and it is safe to let go, to let Rand die.

This could fairly simply mean Rand and Moridin will both be on the brink of death, and if Rand dies first, Shai'tan will have his mean to seize Rand's soul. Moridin's bond to Rand must be cut, leaving Shai'tan with Moridin's soul (he can simply transmigrate back into Moridin's body...) but no tie to Rand anymore (or a very tenuous one because of his prior use of the TP). Alivia may "help Rand to die" by being the one tasked, while Rand is on the brink of death, to track down and kill Moridin.

Then Rand will be able to "safely" die, and the rest would be up to Egwene figuring out what Moghedien may have done to translate Birgitte into the living Pattern (which would include Nynaeve/Birgitte remembering exactly what Moghedien was aiming to accomplish, and I doubt she acoomplished what she really meant to do... IMO she meant to cut Birgitte's link to TAR and send her soul to the "afterdeath/soul pool" so her rebirth would be untied anymore to Gaidal's and she's had lost herself forever, blank slates every time and all. I think Moghedien didn't succeed at cutting Birgitte's tie to the Wheel as Hero (if she even targeted it), and Birgitte's "TAR life" made it impossible for her to enter the regular afterlife and she ended up in the real world to go die there first and return to TAR (ie: Moghedien's will wasn't strong enough to do what she meant to do, she got partly there but the Wheel fought her attempt). Elayne's bond then provided an opportunity for the Wheel to give TAR Birgitte a life thread, piggy-backing on Elayne's thread. So Birgitte is dead yet lives.

Egwene with help from Nyaneve/Birgitte will "simply" have to figure out how to do that - something based on sheer strength of will, I very much suspect. It may turn out what Moghedien did is fundamentally "Evil" to the Pattern's stability and at this point might unravel it, and a workaround way would have to be found. It could lead to admitedly bizarre scenarios involving Birgitte's death for Rand's life - though there's no foreshadowing for such Birgitte/Rand ties.

Rand/the Dragon will forever remain one with the Land. His post TG life, how he envisions life, his happiness, state of mind, how deeply the LB will has affected him etc. when he finally dies after a long or not so long life will shape a lot the Fourth Age. This is why it was so vital that "Dark Rand" couldn't possibly win the LB, or victory would have been just as bad as a defeat.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:49 PM
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Then Rand will be able to "safely" die, and the rest would be up to Egwene figuring out what Moghedien may have done to translate Birgitte into the living Pattern (which would include Nynaeve/Birgitte remembering exactly what Moghedien was aiming to accomplish, and I doubt she acoomplished what she really meant to do... IMO she meant to cut Birgitte's link to TAR and send her soul to the "afterdeath/soul pool" so her rebirth would be untied anymore to Gaidal's and she's had lost herself forever, blank slates every time and all. I think Moghedien didn't succeed at cutting Birgitte's tie to the Wheel as Hero (if she even targeted it), and etc. etc.
One book left. One. This seems a bit too convuluted to fit, along with the rest of the tie ups, in this book.

Nynaeve may play a part, but Egwene? Doubtful. I would sooner guess Nynaeve will act as she normally does...quickly and a bit rashly...to retrieve Rand from TAR if possible.

I have conflicting thoughts though...entering TAR in the flesh has been made out to be a big no-no, from the Egwene storyline, to Rand chasing Ravhin, to Slayer. I always assumed Rand entering TAR physically would play some larger role in the ending, and in fact have something to do with his dying within TAR & being torn back out. BUT. Now Zombie's post, and the idea Rand would have to die to have the eons of memories of the Dragon in TAR comes up (DAMN YOU ZOMBIE). I am really starting to like this idea and am now torn. Possibly Slayer's story is the only important part of entering in the flesh and will not be pertinent to Rand at all.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:24 PM
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To explain the thought about the link being severed: it's more accurate to say that if Rand died the particular wound in his side that he presently has would likely be healed. Although the Blight's been there all third age long, Rand's wound is a much more recent phenomenon, and while it reflects the presence of the Blight, it is also independent from it; therefore there's no reason to think it would magically reappear upon his being removed from TAR. Moreover, I actually think healing this unhealable wound is key in some way to sealing the Bore. This might be the means by which it is done.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:48 PM
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I know that Nynaeve, sort of, witnessed when Birgitte was ripped out.
But I don't think she saw how it was done.

Maybe Birgitte can help with that information
or
Lanfear may know how it's done. (sorry I meant Cyndane)
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
I know that Nynaeve, sort of, witnessed when Birgitte was ripped out.
But I don't think she saw how it was done.

Maybe Birgitte can help with that information
or
Lanfear may know how it's done. (sorry I meant Cyndane)
I have suggested this latter. Unfortunately, someone disagreed. Vehemently.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:58 PM
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The thought process I had was basically this: "Oh another Rand will die forshadowing"..."Why? Why does he have to die?
Rand al'Thor HAS to die, so the real true blind Dragon Reborn's soul can take the center stage, like a true Ringmaster. It's Valan Luca's time to rise up, and shine.

Rand al'Thor is simply a Plowman, for the true Dragon's Soul.


Easy. To kill himself [Rand], means killing Moridin and the Dark One's body in one swoop.

Since ACoS book at minimum, Rand has been "tied" to the Moridin's soul and mind. Likewise Moridin has allowed the Dark One to become one with himself, since at least ACoS book.

It's Robert Jordan's version of the trinity: Father, Son, Holy Ghost... yet in four: Dark One, Rand, Shaidar Haran, Moridin. It's an ending also influenced by Sanskit epics: Mahabharata, Ramayana.

In terms of *horror literature*, WoT series uses "silent" to a great degree to foreshadow coming conflicts. It's so very Homer-esque: Illiad, Odyssey. Example: Galad's POV in Knife of Dream Prologue, near the Shadow Coast Mountains.

In terms of *metaphor*, WoT series contains a high degree of Hinduism [eg Valan Luca and Ganesha], Buddhism [eg Mat Cauthon & King's Park in Illian, Tree in Rhuidean, Ancient Aes Sedai symbol; King Ashoka, Kalinga War, Deer Park at Sarnath, Yin & Yang symbol] influences [TEOTW Prologue--especially his *visual* oriented style of prose. Brandon Sanderson is not as good at writing this visual metaphoric aspect of WoT.], along with Carl Jung, Freud [eg Tar Valon's phallus & vagina visual symbolism etc], Joseph Campbell [eg Quest modeled beginning of TEOTW book], Ernest Hemingway [Iceberg Theory of Writing] et al.

In terms of *sexual situations*, WoT series Robert Jordan does seem have been influenced greatly by Robert Heinlein's "Group Marriage" ideas for an grand ending. Meshed with Mark Twain's Dream ending for 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court'--yes, there is a Gaul character in that book too.



Thing is, Rand al'Thor is not *the* savior... there are multiple saviors in WoT. Nynaeve al'Meara, Lan, Mat Cauthon, Valan Luca... even Thom & Elaida. It takes a cooperative group to win, against the Shadow. Remember the Aiel Maidens do play a game called "Thousand Flowers"....

Chuckling... indeed, yes, "The Creature" is a collective group of beings or souls, who can win against the Shadow too.

Nynaeve al'Meara and others, will need to create a new Beginning, in a New Dream World. As The Creature's Nightmare can have his own place of horror. Meanwhile the Dark One, shall get kicked out of both Nynaeve's and The Creature's separate two Dream Worlds.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:03 PM
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Rand al'Thor is simply a Plowman, for the true Dragon's Soul.
How funny it would be if that turns out to be true.

And I use the word funny in the wrong sense.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:06 PM
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Chuckling... indeed, yes, "The Creature" is a collective group of beings or souls, who can win against the Shadow too.

Nynaeve al'Meara and others, will need to create a new Beginning, in a New Dream World. As The Creature's Nightmare can have his own place of horror. Meanwhile the Dark One, shall get kicked out of both Nynaeve's and The Creature's separate two Dream Worlds.
Sure, but The Creature's victory would be as bad as if the Dark One achieved partial victory (at least).
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:14 PM
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One is not likely to "rip" Rand al'Thor soul from the TAR, in AMoL book. Since 'this World' called Earth is changing: part Mirror World, part Parallel World [No separate TAR], part Dark One's World.

Can the Horn of Valere even work in a Parallel World, in a place similar to Hinderstrap or the Tower of Ghenjei?

Simply easier to just start over, in a new Dream. That to try to alter a huge world sized nightmare.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:18 PM
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Rand's a Bull who's been *harnessed* and *reined* in, to be slaughtered in AMoL... in metaphoric terms. Just search for all the harness references & its synonyms in the WoT books. It's all there.


The Creature in a way, is similar to Moghedien... each is fightning the Dark One is their own ways. For more on The Creature's nature, see Egwene's descriptions of Padan Fain in Fal Dara.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:34 AM
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I wonder who's going to have the memory of light (as the title suggests).

Rand or Lanfear (or both).
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:53 AM
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Kinda off topic, but does anyone know if the way gate was destroyed with SL during the cleansing?
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