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  #1  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:38 AM
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Default Elaida's Fate

First off.. how did the COTW theme miss this one? At least, I searched the archives and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, just finished tGS in my read-through. As I recall, not much screen space is given, nor a final fate suggested, for Elaida in ToM. If I'm remembering wrong on that, I'll soon find out.

So what will her fate be? Will the sul'dam-damane issue never be resolved in any Last Battle agreements, and she remains damane for the rest of her life? Will she be freed.. and then what insofar as her relationship to the Tower is concerned? Exile, I would assume. Will she be freed for the Last Battle, and enact some sort of betrayal due to Fain's influence on her mind? Or will she go down in a blaze of glory and redemption in the Last Battle?

I have obeyed like a good little reader and have come to dislike the character. Yet I somehow find that I hope its the last item there. I don't think the damane issue will remain unsettled, and her freedom and survival would be.. awkward. Left with betrayal or redemption at the last, I somehow find that I hope its redemption. I suppose because I know she started as completely pro-Light, if strict, harsh and ambitious. These are not damning traits, however.

Anyway, was wondering if I was off-base and glimpses of her fate have already been given.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:57 AM
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Our last glimpse at Suffa:
Quote:
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 47 - A Teaching Chamber
"Show us what this woman can do," Selucia said, Voicing the words Fortuona had signed to her. Melitene patted the damane on the head. "Suffa will show the Empress-may she live forever-the Power of slicing the air." "Please," Suffa said, looking pleadingly toward Fortuona. "Please, listen to me. I am the Amyrlin Seat." Melitene hissed, and Suffa's eyes opened wide, obviously feeling a blast of pain through the a'dam. The damane continued anyway. "I can offer great bounty, powerful Empress! If I am returned, I will give you ten women to take my place. Twenty! The most powerful the White Tower has. I-" She broke off, moaning, and collapsed to the ground.
...
Melitene was sweating. She looked to Selucia, speaking quickly, nervously. "Please explain to the Empress of us all-may she live forever-that my eyes are lowered for not having trained this one properly. Suffa is amazingly stubborn, despite how quick she is to weep and offer others in her place." Fortuona sat for a moment, letting Melitene sweat. Eventually, she signed for Selucia to speak. "The Empress is not displeased with you," Selucia Voiced. "These marath'damane who call themselves Aes Sedai have all proven stubborn." "Please express my gratitude to the Greatest One," Melitene said, relaxing. "If it pleases She Whose Eyes Look Upward, I can make Suffa perform. But there may be further outbursts."
I agree that the issue of sul'dam and damane will not be resolved in the very short time we have left, and unless there's some sort of Harry Potter-esque epilogue, we may never see a resolution now that the Mat-Tuon Outriggers won't be written.

So, I don't see Elaida being freed from the collar that we'll know of, and without that I don't see any possibility of redemption or glory. All she can do is obey, or be abused till she does. Not a happy fate, and yet for someone with her hubris, it sort of fits.

Truthfully, I think that her passing Travelling to the Seanchan was her legacy, and that is the end of her as far as we're concerned: an extended lifetime as damane.
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  #3  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:27 AM
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If she is released from the Oaths then she could have an even longer lifetime.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:15 PM
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I could be remembering this wrong but I thought that when asked about Elaida's fate RJ hinted that some of it would be revealed in the outrigger novel he had planned for Mat & Tuon. As I said this could be complely a wrong.

In any event being given damane training can change people. Egwene survived because she was rescued early and has a very strong core belief in herself.

Elaida on the other hand does not have the same inner strenght. She might be strong on the outside but she has always come across to me as a very emotionally brittle character. I would not be surprised if she resisted for a time and then one morning woke up and decided to be the most perfect damane she could be. Given the way the Damane are tortured its not an unrealistic possibility and then even if she was freed the old Elaida we know and hate would be effectivly gone.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:29 PM
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Also
Egwene had friends and visitors to make her cope and hope.

Elaida has no friends
and she knows it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:37 PM
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Pretty sure the damane situation will be resolved. Not sure what that means for Elaida; perhaps Egwene will agree to allow certain prisoners to be kept. Perhaps Elaida will simply be stilled, or killed.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:59 PM
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Perhaps she'll cross paths with Liandrin. That might have interesting results...
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:00 PM
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I cannot imagine certain prisoners would be allowed to be kept. At least not on leashes anyway. This is assuming the damane issue is resolved (I'm of the belief that it will).

I didn't find any foretellings or viewings that implied one way or the other about Elaida. Nothing requires her to exist. And to be sure, she now seems about to pass into obscurity as a character after giving Traveling to the Seanchan. But she's been a driving support character for some time now.

If there was implication that her fate would be more revealed with the outriggers, then perhaps we won't see much of her in aMoL as she's just another channeler with the Seanchan during the Last Battle for the moment - damane or former damane, however that particlar situation falls.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:08 PM
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We don't actually know if the outrigger novels are going to be written. In any event RJ did say that not every loose end would be tied off and this might be one of them. On the other hand I think Brandon has said that an Encyclopedia will be released about a year after the last book and if the outrigger novesl are not written and the last book does not show us what happens perhaps it would be detailed in the encyclopedia.

RJ did not kill off to many main or secondary characters. The good guys tend to die quickly where as the male villins also tended to die but his famale villins were not so lucky. Moggy and Lanfear have ended up as practical slaves of Moridin. Moggy had a date with SH first and I'm not sure if Mesaana did but she ended up abused first then a vegetable. Liandirn is still alive and well but for somone one obsessed with power and position she is blocked from channeling and force to display herself in a very revealing outfit day after day in the very bottom of the social ladder of the Seanchan empire. The former head of the Red Ajah whose name escapes me is on her way the Waste as one of the most cruel Shaido Wise One's personal toy.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern here. The question is did RJ consider Elaida a villin? If he did its not looking so good for her.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:10 PM
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I think she'll be trained and conditioned for some time before being used in the field.

I think Elaida's fate mirrors that of Galina's, she gets a lifetime of pain and suffering for her "sins".
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
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I think Elaida's fate mirrors that of Galina's, she gets a lifetime of pain and suffering for her "sins".
I'm not sure I would equate Elaida's misguided, arrogant stupid fain touched actions quite the same as Galina No 2 in the Black Ajah and her deeds. Elaida was many things but not a darkfriend.

Not to mention if she had not overthrown Siuan, the Tower would have been united and probably captured Rand for his own good long before he got the Black Tower up and running. Not to mentin she did set some of the Sisters hunting for the BA which helped get Egwene elected to the top joy and help route out the Black Ajah.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:01 PM
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Default Elaida's promise to obey the Queen: Morgase; Elayne.

Elaida's promise to obey "the Queen", Elayne and Morgase, has plot importance for AMoL book.

If pushed, Elaida/Suffa will obey Morgase and Elayne before doing whatever her Sul'dam commands. Really. Three Oaths.

Elaida's role in the pattern is extremely important. Mat Cauthon and his Moons, will be wed literally underneath Elaida/Suffa, thus fulfilling her Foretelling. It's a #Parallel of Urien's telling of 'Aiel Prophecy', spoken to Uno, Ragan, Mat, Perrin & Verin in The Great Hunt book.




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Perhaps she'll cross paths with Liandrin. That might have interesting results...
Agreed.

Liandrin is one of the many women, Matrim Cauthon will wed in AMoL book. A Group Marriage to protect them all.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Elaida's promise to obey "the Queen", Elayne and Morgase, has plot importance for AMoL book.

If pushed, Elaida/Suffa will obey Morgase and Elayne before doing whatever her Sul'dam commands. Really. Three Oaths.

Elaida's role in the pattern is extremely important. Mat Cauthon and his Moons, will be wed literally underneath Elaida/Suffa, thus fulfilling her Foretelling. It's a #Parallel of Urien's telling of 'Aiel Prophecy', spoken to Uno, Ragan, Mat, Perrin & Verin in The Great Hunt book.






Agreed.

Liandrin is one of the many women, Matrim Cauthon will wed in AMoL book. A Group Marriage to protect them all.
Felix, didn't you used to have a sig attachment that cliff-noted your loony theories? You should bring that back, as it's a useful way for the rest of us to keep track...
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
We don't actually know if the outrigger novels are going to be written. In any event RJ did say that not every loose end would be tied off and this might be one of them. On the other hand I think Brandon has said that an Encyclopedia will be released about a year after the last book and if the outrigger novesl are not written and the last book does not show us what happens perhaps it would be detailed in the encyclopedia.

RJ did not kill off to many main or secondary characters. The good guys tend to die quickly where as the male villins also tended to die but his famale villins were not so lucky. Moggy and Lanfear have ended up as practical slaves of Moridin. Moggy had a date with SH first and I'm not sure if Mesaana did but she ended up abused first then a vegetable. Liandirn is still alive and well but for somone one obsessed with power and position she is blocked from channeling and force to display herself in a very revealing outfit day after day in the very bottom of the social ladder of the Seanchan empire. The former head of the Red Ajah whose name escapes me is on her way the Waste as one of the most cruel Shaido Wise One's personal toy.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern here. The question is did RJ consider Elaida a villin? If he did its not looking so good for her.
But we do - we do know that they are NOT being written. So to expect characters to all get tied off neatly with a bow is a bit...unrealistic. That scene was an ending, and it was enough of an ending for me. I don't need to know more about Elaida's fate or future with the Seanchan. But, that's just me.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:08 PM
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If not death, slavery was the punishment of the treasonous, over-ambitious and/or narcissistic in WoT. Galina, Sevanna, Liandrin, Asmodean, Moghedien, Lanfear, and maybe Graendal are examples. Elaida would fit in that group. Sevanna, manipulated by Asmodean and Sammael, is an example that the person who suffers slavery does not have to be a darkfriend to suffer that fate.

Elaida will most ironically die on the attack on the White Tower!
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:24 AM
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Thats a good point about Sevanna. She was stupid and selfish as opposed to evil and is now learing to be propety.

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Elaida will most ironically die on the attack on the White Tower!
Why would Elaida be sent on an attack on the White Tower at this stage? So far she is still not entirely broken in and even if she was she is still bound by the Three Oaths. I would have thought that the Seanchan would have non Aes Sedai damane assembled for the strike force with Elaida showing how gateways work. If Aes Sedai damane are to have any role I would have thought it would be in support eg opening gataways or standing by to heal wounded soldiers or injured prisoners.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:41 AM
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Elaida is quite strong, so she could shield most solitary AS and Novices/Accepted. That would be useful, just prior to slamming an A'dam around their necks, yet it would not violate the TO.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:49 AM
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Elaida is quite strong with the OP but she is not fully broken. If she is sent she could just as likely shout for help as to try and shield a sister.

Give the sul'dam a few weeks of intensive training and she will be a good damane and do what she is told but the impression I had was that Tuon planned to strike in the next few days not weeks.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:53 AM
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Elaida is first and foremost a coward...she would do what the sul'dam wants as she is easily breakable (something Alviarin showed us).
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:58 AM
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Elaida is first and foremost a coward...she would do what the sul'dam wants as she is easily breakable (something Alviarin showed us).
And yet despite the sul'dam wanting her to be a good obedient damane she tried to bargin with Tuon and offer her powerful AS to take her place?

I agree she will break and probably a lot faster that some but it will take a bit of time and I don't meen a few hours. Now someone like Wierd Harold with military experience could probably advise better on this but until Elaida is firmly and completly broken I don't see the wisdom in sendng an unreliable weapon into what the Seanchan could see as the most important battle in the whole Return.
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