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  #1  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:24 PM
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Default Aemon and Eldrene

I was thinking (which is never a good sign).

If Aemon and Eldrene has a similar situation as Birgitte and Gaidal Cain (i.e. spun out to live together again and again), which couple in the story's present time would fit the bill best?

Listing the alternatives that comes to mind.
(Since Eldrene was a strong channeler we can probably exclude Perrin and Faile)

1 Mat and Tuon
Tuon has channeling potential and Mat has a strong connection to Aemon for reasons known to most.

2 Lan and Nynaeve
Lan is in a similar situation that Aemon was when Manetheren fought the Trollocs alone. Nynaeve is without a doubt a strong channeler.

3 Gareth and Siuan
No real motivation here. Siuan was a strong channeler and may be strong again (before the end). Gareth is a noble man from Andor.

4 Gawyn and Egwene
The same situation as for (3) except that Egwene has not been weakened in power.

Of course there's aposibility that Aemon and Eldrene don't have the same relationship as B. and G.C.

Any thoughts (or opinions)?
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
I was thinking (which is never a good sign).

If Aemon and Eldrene has a similar situation as Birgitte and Gaidal Cain (i.e. spun out to live together again and again), which couple in the story's present time would fit the bill best?

Listing the alternatives that comes to mind.
(Since Eldrene was a strong channeler we can probably exclude Perrin and Faile)

1 Mat and Tuon
Tuon has channeling potential and Mat has a strong connection to Aemon for reasons known to most.

2 Lan and Nynaeve
Lan is in a similar situation that Aemon was when Manetheren fought the Trollocs alone. Nynaeve is without a doubt a strong channeler.

3 Gareth and Siuan
No real motivation here. Siuan was a strong channeler and may be strong again (before the end). Gareth is a noble man from Andor.

4 Gawyn and Egwene
The same situation as for (3) except that Egwene has not been weakened in power.

Of course there's aposibility that Aemon and Eldrene don't have the same relationship as B. and G.C.

Any thoughts (or opinions)?
Mat and Elayne...
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:49 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Well, Lan and Nynaeve make a lot of sense. Nynaeve has a lot of sunset symbolism associated with her (Rose of the Sun), she is a powerful channeler who would be Queen, married to a Warder-King of a land that is soon going to be a thorn on the DO's foot, headed towards a last charge to save the rest of the world, a charge that includes a lot of non-soldiers.

But Jordan also put Eldrene-Aemon motif in other characters. The Elayne-Mat "couple" (I'm not saying they will be, or even should be, an actual couple) fits the story like a glove. Elayne wears the Rose crown and holds the Sun Throne, is an Aes Sedai queen of immense power. Her nation is soon going to be massively invaded, and her army is elsewhere by the Amyrlin's designs (though this Amyrlin is a close friend and not in any way intent on betraying her). Her people will be defended by the Band of the Red Hand, which is known (the current one too) for its great ability to march quickly. Mat is not her Warder, but her "loyal subject", who has protected her from death more than once.

Egwene and Gawyn do not work at all. Egwene's role is different from the Aes Sedai queen. And barring her descent from Eldrene and Aemon, and the mild similarity between her name and Eldrene's, there's no connection at all. Egwene is a more the anti-Lanfear, and something of the Latra Pose of this age (even if she isn't the actual woman reborn). Gawyn doesn't fit the Warder-King motif at all.

Tuon, again, doesn't fit too well. She may become an Aes Sedai queen, but she will never end up killing herself and destroying the city around her out of sorrow.

Eldrene, of course, is an interesting inversion of Lews Therin/Rand. And if Elayne were to be captured/harmed, Rand is totally capable of pulling a nutty and going ballistic. And Elayne has some Warder-like qualities, in that she is bold, not afraid of physical confrontations, etc. So RJ may have spread the Eldrene-Aemon motifs there as well.

What's clear, I think, is that no two characters are clearly Eldrene and Aemon reborn. The story of their life, however, is split up among several of the major characters.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:23 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Matt and Elayne

Curious.. I had not thought of this..

It might fly with Eldrane being the Rose of the Sun, and Her Majesty the Prim, having the Rose Crown and Sun Throne. I would love to say coincidence, but you never know.

Mat, as leader of the Band, as well as the bloodline of Man. & pulling Elayne's bacon out of the fire.. could work. But I think not. I do not think Aemon and Eldrane are present.
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:55 PM
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It's Mat and Elayne. That's why they find themselves connected despite all, and why they sort of have this complicity despite all.

RJ had Mat go through all the steps/phases of classic "courtly love" (the French Arthurian brand quite distinct from romantic love), with a massive layer of humour and irony thrown in.

Mat made himself Elayne's champion by defeating her champions in tournament (that's the Mat vs. Galad/Gawyn TDR scene). By the rules of Arthurian chivalry, he's beaten her protectors and that makes him their replacement, destined to protect her and serve her.

Which RJ didn't wait long to exploit, giving Mat all the classic tasks of the Arthurian knights in turn.... brave dangers to deliver a message from his Lady, brave dangers to free her from a villain who took her captive, risk his life to protect her from a monster (that's usually a dragon, here it was the gholam). Recently, he committed his soldiers to defend "her castle".

They've had the "Aemon and Eldrene" thing going between them since TDR.

It's only more obvious recently as the "fall of Manetheren" variant begins to play out at the end of TOM. In the new variant it's "Eldrene" who is away north at the Field of Merrilor when the Shadow strikes at the city, and "Aemon's band of heroes" is back home at the city.. without Aemon around whom to rally. And this time it's not Caar One-Hand prisoner of Aridhol, it's One-Eyed Mat gone to free a prisoner from Ghenjei.
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:59 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Well put

Very good.. I do not know if I can totally accept this though, as this is only similar. If they were a couple ie, Aes Sedai Queen and Warder King married to each other. I think to be A & E, they would have to be a couple.
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2012, 02:06 AM
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I think to be A & E, they would have to be a couple.
They're the comedy version of that instead. It's like they're meant to be AS and Warder but just won't - and but are very "lucky" in their love match.. Elayne got herself hooked with the Dragon Reborn and can't reveal it publicly, and Mat got married "by accident" to the Seachan Empress.

Many times Mat has acted as Elayne's unbound and unrecognized warder (even offering her his medallion, weapons, his own army he placed in her service). Elayne's unconsciously and unnaturally attracted to Mat (not romantically)- like she's adopted his cursing and general attitude without noticing. He was as bad an influence on her as he is on Olver. Mat is also constantly attracted to Elayne (in his case, including sexually). He said many times what stops him (before Rand got involved with her, anyway) is the fact she was Daughter-heir and Aes Sedai. And despite all this, and all his prejudices, he's still became fond and protective of Elayne - all the while saying he wanted nothing to do with the likes of her.

She's helped Mat a few times too, most notably extracting him from the embarrassing Tylin situation.

They're the reckless Queen/AS and her most reluctant hero whose paths keep crossing, like a dysfunctional Eldrene and Aemon.

RJ exploited the humor vein of the pair rather than going for the straight replay of Aemon and Eldrene as a real couple and real AS and Warder. Mat's the warder Elayne doesn't want, and being a warder is the last thing Mat would want. Still, he's played a role near her very much like a warder, in many episodes. Rand is bonded to her, but never acted toward her as a warder the way Mat does.

And mind you, we don't really know much about Aemon and Eldrene, which in the legends are no doubt idealized as a couple, like the whole downfall of Manetheren is (it's obvious the WT hid the whole horrid role of the Amyrlin in the events by turning Eldrene into this big time heroin. I'd bet the farm it's not Eldrene who destroyed Manetheren. The WT invented this because it looked so much better than admitting the Shadow after defeating Aemon levelled the city and escaped mostly unscathed...)

In the TDR scene in which Mat appeared to be Aemon or someone very close to him, he sure didn't seem to like Aes Sedai all that much...

I could bring up more I find relevant, but not here as it touches on the preview material for AMOL.

And mind you, it doesn't mean Elayne is Eldrene reborn, or Mat is Aemon. They could be just their counterparts in the replay/variant in that pattern.

But it all comes down to simple things in the end: Elayne is clearly the contemporary Rose of the Morning, or Rose of the Sun. Heck, Rand even once played a song by that title thinking of her. She wears now the Rose Crown and the Sun Crown of the land of the "rising sun", the hill of thegolden dawn. Mat's been described as the Lion on the Hill.

Then there are other things that just match too much to be coincidences. Manetheren was the strongest nation of its days, Andor is now. In TOM Elayne got the allegiance of pretty much all that was once Manetheren (merged with the original Paendrag lands.. She's got Shandalle and Mayene.) Her city is the one the Shadow attacks. Who gets the band of heroes/adventurers? Mat, and it's named after Aemon's similar band (which we know was a "private army", not the regular army of Manetheren). Whose Queen/Realm the Band sold its allegiance to, and now serves? Elayne's. Who's there and run to the city heroically when the Shadow attacks the Realm? The Band of the Red Hand. Who acted periodically as a warder to Elayne? Mat.

Can't get much clearer than that, the rest of the Manetheren replay is presumably in AMOL. Who's to say Elayne won't eventually bond Mat during the LB, it's been suggested in past theories often enough Elayne owes Mat one or two life savings, and it's even foreshadowed she might have to save his life eventually (she can't Heal but bruises. But she can bond him and give him some of her own life force.)

Assuming that Eldrene/Aemon are bound as Birgitte and Cain, always a couple, always as warder-AS is going a little too far on a limb. It may be, but we have no evidence they're even HoH. If they are, their exact relationship may vary greatly with each rebirth. It may not be their relationship but they're Queen and galant knight which is the constant. Who's to say Elayne isn't both Ilyena and Eldrene reborn, for instance? She couldn't be Aemon's Queen in this incarnation, she's the Dragon's lover. One of three.

Last edited by Dom; 12-16-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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  #8  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:51 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Outstanding

I am ready to jump on this wagon. All of your points are excellent, and I do admit that MAt is my favorite character. While they may not be A&E reborn, they very well might be. We ahve seen the histories get twisted before. Example, soon after she's bonded, Birgitte tells Elayne of an accepted who was about to be raised, bonding a man.. It was found out and she was not raised, had to release the bond, then after she was raised 10 years later, she was given a warder who basically controled her. Elayne then recognises the names, but the story just says these two were lovers, but only after she did some great task to earn his love.

I love Mat's letter to Elayne. You are very correct, I think, as they are very entertwined. It will be interesting how it goes, as Mat has made it his habit to pull her out of the tight spots
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost One View Post
I am ready to jump on this wagon. All of your points are excellent, and I do admit that MAt is my favorite character. While they may not be A&E reborn, they very well might be. We ahve seen the histories get twisted before. Example, soon after she's bonded, Birgitte tells Elayne of an accepted who was about to be raised, bonding a man.. It was found out and she was not raised, had to release the bond, then after she was raised 10 years later, she was given a warder who basically controled her. Elayne then recognises the names, but the story just says these two were lovers, but only after she did some great task to earn his love.

I love Mat's letter to Elayne. You are very correct, I think, as they are very entertwined. It will be interesting how it goes, as Mat has made it his habit to pull her out of the tight spots
You probably would have liked the essay I wrote long ago analyzing the Mat-Elayne relationship/parallels, and the sources of inspiration behind this. I wish I didn't lose it in a HD crash.

One problem with assigning all this conclusively to rebirths is that RJ used such repetitions of patterns in situations where it's proven the character isn't the rebirth of an historical figure.

The Fox and Lionness/Mat and Elayne/Aemon & Eldrene thing as a counterpart with Perrin, Faile and Berelain.

The trio very much replayed aspects of the history of Artur Hawkwing, twisted around/inverted.

For instance, Perrin's travels followed those of Hawkwing in the War of the Second Dragon. It begins on Toman's Head, near where Amalasan proclaimed himself. There was a battle there, then Amalasan retreated in the mountains and moved toward Tear, like Rand did, with Hawkwing in pursuit, like Perrin. There was a siege in Tear. The final episode where Amalasan was captured was paralleled with Dumai's Wells.

Faile and Berelain played the part of Hawkwing's two wives... but both at once. Hawkwing's darkness following the murder of his first wife was paralleled with Perrin's darkness after Faile's kidnapping. Like Hawkwing he became dark and even cruel. Hawkwing at that time launched a war on.. the Aiel. He was brought back of his darkness by his second wife, the role Berelain played to help him as Faile was gone.

And there are all the other connections, like the way Perrin built his micro empire, the Hammer of the Light etc.

And of course, Perrin can't be Hawkwing reborn, he's just repeating variants of his patterns/story.

It could be the same for Mat and Elayne, though I tend to think in their cases it's truly rebirths.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:42 AM
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Thom and Moiraine.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:37 AM
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Default Good Points

I never knew that much of the history of AH, such as the two marriages, wife murdered; or anthing of Alamson other than he was a false dragon whose followers had tried to free him.

Ton and Moraine could be a parallel between A&E, expecially considering that they still have parts to play. But if A&E have been reborn, I think mat and Elayne might fit best.. if somewhat skewed.
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