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View Poll Results: Is Sorilea a Darkfriend?
Yes 17 34.69%
No 16 32.65%
Not Sure 16 32.65%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:16 PM
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Default Sorilea: Is She a Darkfriend?

I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC 51, The Taking
Hurrying along the dusk-covered street by the great stone house where the Aes Sedai were, Sorilea could barely sense them still channeling inside. She could only just sense it because she could only just channel at all, but that was not why she ignored it. They had been channeling day and night in there since their arrival; none of the Wise Ones wasted thought on why any longer. Sorilea certainly had more important matters to think of now. Back at the treekiller’s palace, the Maidens were beginning to grow itchy over Rand al’Thor, muttering that the Car’a’carn would have some explaining to do when he returned this time. Sorilea had lived a great deal longer than any of those Maidens, longer than any other Wise One, weak in the Power or not, and she was uneasy. Like most men, Rand al’Thor went when he wished, where he wished – men were like cats in that – but this time, at the same time he was flitting off, Min had vanished somewhere between the tents and the palace. Sorilea did not like coincidences, no matter how many surrounded the Car’a’carn. Wrapping her shawl against a sudden feel of chill in her bones, she hurried on toward the tents.
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.

Does anyone still wonder, now?
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:46 PM
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I remember wondering why she didn't say anything to anyone, but figured it was both the Aiel not trusting to tell Wetlanders anything and part of RJ's recurring theme of people not telling each other anything that might constitute useful information.

I'm still not certain it isn't part of that, or that this POV in LoC tells us much of anything new in hindsight of tGS. We know the Forsaken/Chosen do not act in unison, much less Darkfriends. We don't really know Sorilea's master and game yet, or how much she actually knew. Her reaction later once Berelain does find the sword, and actions on the road to Dumai's Wells and at the Wells to bring the Wise Ones into the fight, seem to suggest her end goal is different from those Darkfriends involved in the kidnapping.

In my last read-through, with tGS knowledge and our theories/comments posted here, I took this and assumed that Sorilea was one of those working for a more distant end-goal with Rand related to the Last Battle and his destiny to face the Great Lord.

(I also half-considered the idea that Sorilea was a Verin-like Darkfriend, but have little to back that thought process up and do not know how I'd feel about it. It was mostly born out of wondering how such a respected and deep-rooted Aiel WO could truly be working for the Shadow.)
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinz View Post
I remember wondering why she didn't say anything to anyone, but figured it was both the Aiel not trusting to tell Wetlanders anything and part of RJ's recurring theme of people not telling each other anything that might constitute useful information.
Except that they should have had a clue before then that he had not left of his own free will, and clearly they did not have a clue.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I have picked over Sorilea's lone POV over and over since TGS came out, trying to determine what RJ was trying to tell us with it. I can't believe it took me—us—so long.


She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.

Does anyone still wonder, now?
I saw nothing sinister in that, the Wise Ones just keep their own counsel about everything, whether important or not. And Sorilea probably keeps her own counsel even from other Wise Ones.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:07 PM
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Sorilea probably reports to the Naeblis alone...and helping bring the Aiel WOs into the battle definitely helps the lord of chaos rule.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I saw nothing sinister in that
This from the guy who argued that Taim wasn't a Darkfriend.

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the Wise Ones just keep their own counsel about everything, whether important or not. And Sorilea probably keeps her own counsel even from other Wise Ones.
If they had known Min had disappeared, they would have had good reason to believe that Rand had not left of his own free will, and clearly they did not until Berelain found the sword. If they had, don't you think they would have been even more suspicious when the Aes Sedai left three days later? Don't you think they would have sent spears to at least keep an eye on them? But they waited for three more days as if nothing had happened out of the ordinary.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
This from the guy who argued that Taim wasn't a Darkfriend.
One has nothing to do with the other

Anyway, I never said Taim wasn't sinister, but that fact doesn't make someone a follower of the Dark One.

Quote:
Terez on Twitter: People just don't want to believe that Sorilea is a Darkfriend. There is more evidence against her than there ever was against Weiramon.
This from someone who didn't believe that Sheriam was evil??? j/k

The same POV reveals Sorilea apparently feeling fear at Min's unexplained disappearance, an odd reaction for a presumed darkfriend, notwithstanding the fact that she was obviously ignorant of Rand's kidnapping in a darkfriend plot. And I think Sorilea's silence was in character with the Aiel not asking untrusted wetlanders for help in any issues, however critical, regarding Rand.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
One has nothing to do with the other
I'd say they have quite a bit to do with each other.

Quote:
This from someone who didn't believe that Sheriam was evil??? j/k
I actually did. I argued it for a while with Callandor but eventually gave up because I didn't really care if she was Black or not. Sometimes after that I would take up his argument, but most of the time when it came up I addressed it neutrally.

Quote:
The same POV reveals Sorilea apparently feeling fear at Min's unexplained disappearance, an odd reaction for a presumed darkfriend
How so? There are a hundred reasons why it would have made even a Darkfriend nervous.

Quote:
notwithstanding the fact that she was obviously ignorant of Rand's kidnapping in a darkfriend plot.
Since when do Darkfriends get told more than they absolutely need to know?

Quote:
And I think Sorilea's silence was in character with the Aiel not asking untrusted wetlanders for help in any issues, however critical, regarding Rand.
They had good reason to trust Perrin, and Perrin assumed Min had disappeared with Rand.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:32 PM
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I found an example of me making Callandor's arguments (and some of my own), but it would be harder for me to find me arguing with Callandor about it, since it's on Yuku and the search is broken. Also, Google doesn't like to search Yuku either; it keeps giving me vbulletin results. I definitely went back and forth on that one, though.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.
They all knew Rand was gone. they thought he had Travelled on his own. Nandera thought he would be gone for a few hours, but it took six days, and Berelain finding his sword, before anyone got suspicious. In Perrin's PoV, he says that Min had either gone with Rand or was with the Aiel. Now, the Aiel obviously knew Min had left them to go to the Palace. They probably assumed she met Rand half-way and went with him.
Quote:
Does anyone still wonder, now?
I still do. Sorelia's actions are entirely unconvincing for a Darkfriend.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:00 PM
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Regarding your twitter post on Sorilea:

Verin, probably the most effective investigator of Darkfriends in the Third Age, Compelled Sorilea. Her form allows her to ask questions and get a true response. Do you really think that she would have left a Darkfriend of Sorilea's power/influence alive when she took off?

Maybe she had explicit orders to leave Sorilea unharmed, but she could still plant a psychological block, or send a letter to Rand (or another, maybe one with no qualms on killing women) post-mortem.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
They all knew Rand was gone.
lol. At least Deadsy will get a laugh out of this, if no one else will.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
She realized that Min disappeared between the tents and the palace. In other words, she realized Min never reached the palace at all...and yet she apparently told no one. No one knew Rand was gone until Berelain found his sword, and if they'd known about Min, they would have known about Rand.
As had already been hinted at, Rand might have picked up Min to go wherever he'd gone. But they did not think he would have left his sword, so only then was it clear to them that he hadn't gone voluntarily.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
They all knew Rand was gone. they thought he had Travelled on his own. Nandera thought he would be gone for a few hours, but it took six days, and Berelain finding his sword, before anyone got suspicious. In Perrin's PoV, he says that Min had either gone with Rand or was with the Aiel. Now, the Aiel obviously knew Min had left them to go to the Palace. They probably assumed she met Rand half-way and went with him.
Knowing Rand was gone is irrelevant. It's that Min disappeared that was weird. I like to think the Aiel know enough about Travelling to know he's not going to Travel into the middle of the city and risk splitting someone in half just to save the hour or so it would take Min to get back to him. I could be wrong, but even if I am wrong, it would still be strange for the Aiel to think he wouldn't wait a short time for her to return and then Travel with her from the palace.

You say Berelain found his sword before anyone got suspicious. But in this very thread it's shown that Sorilea was suspicious. She felt uneasy and her bones were chilled.

Quote:
I still do. Sorelia's actions are entirely unconvincing for a Darkfriend.
I'm not as convinced as Terez that she's a darkfriend, but I haven't seen any good arguments against it being suspicious that Sorilea told no one.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jana View Post
Knowing Rand was gone is irrelevant. It's that Min disappeared that was weird. I like to think the Aiel know enough about Travelling to know he's not going to Travel into the middle of the city and risk splitting someone in half just to save the hour or so it would take Min to get back to him. I could be wrong, but even if I am wrong, it would still be strange for the Aiel to think he wouldn't wait a short time for her to return and then Travel with her from the palace.
He doesn't have to Travel into the middle of the city, though. Any number of basements for him to go to first. And I'm not the only one who thinks he might have done that, as I'll show.

Quote:
You say Berelain found his sword before anyone got suspicious. But in this very thread it's shown that Sorilea was suspicious. She felt uneasy and her bones were chilled.
Fair enough. But answer me this. How do you think Sorelia figured out Min disappeared between the Aiel camp and the Palace?

Either she herself saw Min leave the camps, or she asked around and was told Min left the camps. Then she asked around the palace, of the Aiel guards, the servants, etc. if Min had come there. And they said no, she hadn't. Which means she went around speaking to quite a few people about this. How did she expect it to remain a secret? Especially since we know Perrin knew Min was not in the palace:

Quote:
A few hours, Nandera had said, but Rand had been gone six days now. Min had either gone with him or was staying with the Aiel. And no one seemed to know anything. Except for the one called Sorilea, the Wise Ones were evasive as any Aes Sedai when Perrin managed to corner one; Sorilea told him bluntly to tend to his wife and keep his nose out of affairs that did not concern wetlanders.
So Perrin knew Min was not in the Palace, but he thought she may either be with the Aiel, or had gone with Rand (which means he also assumed Rand Traveled to the "middle of the city" and got her before going elsewhere).

More importantly, are you telling me that women like Amys and Bair did not think to ask where Min was for six days?

Quote:
I'm not as convinced as Terez that she's a darkfriend, but I haven't seen any good arguments against it being suspicious that Sorilea told no one.
I'm yet to see a convincing argument that Sorelia did indeed tell no one. She was uneasy about this. The other WO might also have known, and like Sorelia, were uneasy, but didn't say anything because it wasn't proof of anything.

And given Sorelia's actions when she did find out Rand was kidnapped, exactly why would she be keeping Min's disappearance secret? She was clearly worried that Rand was missing in her PoV. Which means she didn't know anything about the kidnap plot, and given that she moved to thwart it the moment she did, wouldn't she have discussed Min's coincidental disappearance with the WO when Rand's disappearance was being discussed?
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
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The fact that Perrin assumed Min had gone with Rand was what made me post in the first place. Clearly he had no idea she had never made it back to the Palace at all.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The fact that Perrin assumed Min had gone with Rand was what made me post in the first place. Clearly he had no idea she had never made it back to the Palace at all.
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
The next morning, the rest of the Wise Ones still shifted from group to group, but before the long column had covered three miles, Perrin realized that all centered on Sorilea now. Now and then she and Amys went off to one side of the road by themselves to talk, but there were no more glares. Had they been wolves, Perrin would have said a challenge to the pack leader had been defeated, but by their scents, Sorilea accepted Amys as almost an equal now, which did not fit wolves at all.
So, let's say Sorelia is a Darkfriend. Amys strongly opposes her position on something, and they have a major argument. Sorelia wins the argument. Shouldn't she be feeling contempt and satisfaction if she is a Darkfriend? Shoudn't she be furious Amys is almost her equal now? Why in the world would she actually see Amys as almost equal? Which Darkfriend's character profile does this fit?
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez.
As far as Perrin knew, Min might have made it to the palace and left from there together with Rand.
Then she wouldn't have been in the palace for days, but she would have been there for a short while after leaving the Aiel camp.

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Why in the world would she actually see Amys as almost equal? Which Darkfriend's character profile does this fit?
Lanfear's. She is also willing to see Rand/LTT as "almost equal" after all.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Wait. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, so he didn't know she didn't make it to the Palace? Your logic is astounding El... uh, Terez.
I'll try to make it clearer for you. He knew she wasn't in the Palace, but apparently did not know that she was not in the Palace when Rand was taken. Therefore he assumed that she had gone with Rand. Sorilea knew better. She knew something was up, and she clearly did not share that knowledge with anyone. If any of the Aiel had the slightest reason to suspect, they would not have waited six days to search Rand's chambers for clues. (Berelain is the one who did that, because she had some reason to be suspicious.)
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